Women and the Fans...

[gen-is-gone.livejournal.com]

So, it isn't Monday, but who's up for a little discussion anyway? Namely, about some of the women on our show. Now, I've been following recent ep discussion posts and I'm noticing a few strange similarities between fan reaction to Hotch's new jogging partner,(and now girlfriend) Beth and former co-star Ashley Seaver, played by Rachel Nichols. Now, before you get into the long rants about her physical similarities to JJ or her supposedly bland acting, hear me out: the abject hatred some fans felt toward her was disconcerting to say the least, and so I am upset (though not really surprised) to hear that new character Beth is getting the same treatment.

I'm honestly indifferent towards Beth because there isn't much to her character yet, but character development happens over time. Frankly, I'm tired of the witch hunts Criminal Minds' fanbase goes on every time a new (or not so new) female character gets introduced. I remember the discussion posts leading up to 100 and at least 50% of all of the Haley related comments saying that they hoped she'd die. And then she did, and the few who actually lacked the shame to cheer for a violent murder were subsequently shouted down. Now that it's been two years, people seem to like her more. And let us not forget Ashley and Jordan Todd, neither of whom got the chance to develop as characters because the (mostly female) fans pitched a dozen fits. And to rewind even farther, remember all the Elle fans (where have they gone I wonder...) complaining after her first introduction in 'The Last Word' that Emily was an Ice Bitch and a robot? You certainly won't see them around anymore. I wish that for once criminalxminds would shut up about female characters long enough to get to know them. Much though I adore Reid and all of the male cast, I'm noticing that the double standard we've all been accusing CBS of in regards to their not valuing women is surprisingly (and hypocritically) apparent within our own fanbase. Now, I know Will and Kevin still have quite the hatedom of their own, but they're mostly getting flack from over-the-top shippers, while Haley, Elle, Emily, Jordan, Ashley and Beth were at varying points treated with an appalling amount of suspicion and out right hatred. So, what do you think? Agree? Disagree? Want to rip my throat out? I'm not trying to come off as rude, I would love to better understand why so many people find fault with such seemingly innocuous women.

Comments

[lights.livejournal.com]

I never cared one way or another about Haley or Jordan Todd. I had no problem with Ashley as a character, but her introduction felt really forced & like a bad fanfiction, where she has this ~magical power~ to understand serial killers with families like nobody else in the history of the entire world.

You're right, there isn't a lot to Beth and yes, character development does happen over time... but with every other character that we've been introduced to & has lasted, you learned things really early on. Rossi, Emily, Kevin, Will -- they were all immediately identifiable and memorable to me. I can't honestly even remember what Beth looks like outside of the show, and there's nothing about her character that sticks with me, and I don't really care enough to look for more, you know?

[aim2misbhave.livejournal.com]

I wasn't a huge fan of Haley, but I'm not really a huge fan of Will or any of the other secondary characters anyways. Maybe I just don't have the attention span for stories that long? But I did have hopes for Ashley and Jordan, and I like Emily - for some reason, though, I never liked Elle very much. Can't figure out why.

But I do agree that the female characters in this fandom tend to get an absurd amount of hate. Not the worst I've ever seen, but a completely unwarranted amount.

[charlsie-esq.livejournal.com]

I'm coming out from lurking to respond to this comment. I am guilty of the girl-hate. I was indifferent to Haley, to add the truth, I felt like she was the character that put what the team did in a real-world context. Haley was all, yes I know my husband saves people, but I want him at home for dinner. I resented her for not being more understanding but I could put myself in her shoes. I was indifferent to Ashley because the character felt unfinished. I thought the actress was poor but the character didn't give her much to work with. I hated Elle. I thought she was obnoxious and I felt the same way about Jordan. I didn't like JJ until Season 7, before that, I felt like she was window dressing. I loved Strauss, she was a great villain/foil. I loved Emily on sight. I felt like she was strong and intelligent and brought so many special skills to the team. I love her interaction with Morgan. She was just the first female character that I felt was on par with the guys and not fluff. I love Garcia for all her quirkiness. Your post made me think about why I like or don't like the female characters. I think I only like strong female characters. The more gutsy she is, the more I like her (which is why I like this season's JJ more than before). As for Becky. I like her because she makes Hotch smile. Whatever makes him smile makes me happy.

[leianora.livejournal.com]

Oh... thank you! thank you! Thank you!

I so totally agree with this that it's making me grin like a shark. I felt really sorry for the girl who played Ashley because of all the crap that she was getting. Ugh! I would so hate to be an actor in this show!

[philstar22.livejournal.com]

This post hits my feelings so well. I've never hated a single CM character. I love Emily. I liked Elle. I was neutral to JJ for a while, but I never disliked her, and she grew on me. I found Ashley intriguing and liked her as much as I could with what little we got. I was neutral to Jordan Todd. I liked Haley. I think Beth is adorable, and since she is making Hotch happy that makes me happy. Not sure we've gotten enough yet for it to be active like of her, but I certainly don't dislike her.

And I agree that there does seem to be a double standard in the fandom. Although, I think some of it does have to do with inconsistent writing sometimes on the show when it comes to women. But not to the extent that the hatred of female characters in the fandom would make it seem, not by a long shot.

[writing2death.livejournal.com]

I obviously haven't been following this closely enough to have noticed that Beth was getting hate. This kind of makes me sad because I like Beth, what little of her character there is. I don't see how there can be enough there to hate, but I suppose that if there's enough there to like...

I completely agree with you. Partially, I think people react this way because the characters are being introduced after our main cast has all ready been established. I found that it took an appallingly long time to get to know the team in the beginning because the episodes are so case-based (and we're still learning new things about them) and then with Ashley Seaver, they just shoved all of her information down our throats at once. There should be a happy medium, but unfortunately because we all ready have a lovely fully developed cast, people get impatient and then no one's happy whatever they do.

But then again, I loved all of those female characters, so... I don't know.

Female characters tend to get put under the microscope so that they can just pick out every little thing they don't agree with, I find. If a male character were to behave the same way I don't think they'd get the same amount of flak. It's a frustrating double standard.

[liliaeth]

Yeah, Ive noticed this in a lot of fandoms, that male characters, long as they're hot, are instantly seen as deep or 'subtle', even if all there is is a lack of ability to show any emotion. Whereas with a female actor, they're either seen as bland, if they don't show emotions, and over the top, when they do. It's like a female actor can rarely if ever do anything right.

[fbi-woman.livejournal.com]

I kinda liked Elle in the beginning, but then that went downhill and I started disliking her.

I was never huge on Haley, but mostly because I didn't like seeing how much it hurt Hotch when things didn't work out. And I felt like she was being a little selfish. I mean yeah he wasn't there all the time, but it's hard to find such a good man. I'd be so proud to have a husband like him, so all I could think was 'wtf is wrong with you?!' lol. But to be fair, I think crime solving stuff is awesome - I wanted to be a coroner when I was 13 lol and I went to every forensic science camp/program I could find - so I would totally want to hear ALL about his day and I like having time alone so him working out of town wouldn't bother me. I'll be honest, there was definitely a least a little ship-based dislike towards her on my part as well, but it wasn't even close to being the main reason. And even so, I BAWLED when she died lol. I didn't really want her around but I certainly didn't want anything horrible to happen to her either.

I always loved Emily lol. Every show I watch there's one character in particular that I really identify with and have an immediate attachment to, and that's her. Seriously, you'd have thought I lost a family member when she "died". I embarrassed myself with how hard I was bawling... and I was alone lol. Even I thought I was rather pathetic in that moment :P.

I liked Jordan and Ashley. I felt like they both got the short end of the stick and didn't really get a fair shake at being welcomed.

I'm behind with this season so I have yet to be introduced to Beth. Again, I know I'm probably going to have a little ship-based dislike, but at this point she's easy to write out in my mind/with fanfic so it'll be minimal. I hope I like her. I would prefer to like her cuz it would make watching more enjoyable lol, so I do plan to at least give her a chance.

[scotchsour.livejournal.com]

I don't get not liking every female and male character on this show but that's me. However with Elle, I think that was the case of really bad writing of how to exit the actress out of the show so everything about her became an OOC . So was great and I still don't understanding the hate for her but I totally blame the writers.

[chreesko.livejournal.com]

I wish LJ had a like button, OP.

The stuff with Beth is especially grating for me because there's a lot of talk about how it's unnecessary for Hotch to have a love interest and how it's out-of-character and how the old show would never do that and Beth is so bland and they wouldn't feel this way if it were Haley, completely ignoring that (a) Hotch was married, (b) we saw multiple scenes of him with his wife outside of work, and (c) people hated her, too, when she was alive.

Someone somewhere added up the numbers, and found that Beth has been on screen for ~7 minutes. Seven minutes out of ~130 minutes, and people are simultaneously complaining that we see too much of her and she's too bland/needs more development. I guess I can't take the complaints seriously because it happens every time there's a woman introduced, and it's always the same thing with only a slight variation in theme. But what it boils down to at the end of the day is, "Women, ew."

[beatrice_otter]

+1

[diemme.livejournal.com]

I didn't like Prentiss at first but her character was well written and she made herself felt. She was real. Jordan Todd had her moments but she was obviously a temporary character so there was no point getting invested either way, in my opinion.

The awfulness of Seaver I'd lay at the doorstep of the writers. One week she was a Mary Sue and the next she was wistful and sad and the next she was plain dull. They never seemed to pick a direction and go with it.

Beth comes across as a prop to me. There's just no depth or interest the way there was with Will or Kevin. Even Rossi's random ex wife felt more legitimate than Beth does. I'd have loved it if they'd gone into Hotch's past for a love interest, that lawyer from Tabula Rasa perhaps.

I thought Haley's death and the manner of it was a good resolution to the Hotch and Haley story. It would be pointless to have her hang around as Hotch's ex wife indefinitely.

Does anyone else wonder what Elle's doing?

[a_blackpanther]

You're equating certain types of fans with the whole community, and I'm really not comfortable with that association. Not everyone here supports that POV, which this thread seems to point out.

I never liked Elle very much, and season two/three Haley really annoyed me. I liked Jordan, and I wanted to like Ashley but I just ended up being very indifferent to her. I haven't seen the latest episode yet but Beth so far seems harmless, if a little too cutesy in a romantic comedy kind of way. I loved Emily from day one, and she still is my favourite character.

[gen-is-gone.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I didn't want to seem whiny, but it seems like the hair trigger reaction towards a new female character regardless of role is suspicion, and I wanted to bring that to the forefront as it is a pattern I've noticed. I don't want to offend anyone, and I certainly don't want to impose my views, but i think it needs to be mentioned, especially in the wake of the whole 'CBS hates women' debacle of season six. If the majority of the fanbase reacts negatively to any new female leads or even bit-part characters, then the networks' treatment of its actresses might have, if not justification, then at least an explanation. But this wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just criminalxminds as a whole.

[paksenarrion2.livejournal.com]

The women you talk about can be divided into two groups.

We have the secondary or temporary characters-Haley, Beth, Jordan Todd. Then we have the primary characters-JJ, Elle, Emily. Then we have poor Ashley Seaver who really doesn't fit into either category. She was meant to be a primary character but ended up being temporary.

Some of the hatred expressed by some fans towards Haley was due to the fact that the writers painted her as a villain in the relationship. She was the one making demands on Hotch to change his job. It was implied that she could be having an affair (the cell phone call Hotch answered that was a hang up, followed immediately by the house phone ringing) and her taking Jack from the house when Hotch left to go to Milwaukee. Granted, she did have some valid reasons, but the way it was written, she was meant to be the bad guy. Is it any wonder the fans reacted to that? I do think the level of hatred some expressed was wrong and over the top. However, I think most of the fans never wished her dead and many look back fondly on her now.

Jordan Todd was a brash, abrasive character. She butted head's with Morgan. She lied to a family member in front of Hotch-although I give her props for taking her Hotchalance with grace. She was stubborn but at the same time rather insecure. And I don't blame her-here she was stepping into a team that was clearly tight-knit. A job that was difficult to deal with, in terms of subject matter. Not everyone is cut out to deal with having to make decisions that are literally life and death. I loved the rapport she showed with Prentiss in 52 Pickup. I also admired her for admitting she wasn't cut out for the job. She was someone that wasn't afraid to admit failure.

Beth is such a paper character at this point, I can't really say much. I think the reason that some fans are reacting with such hatred is that they are die-hard Prentiss/Hotch shippers and she is in the way. Really? Seriously people, give it up. Do what we call do, be happy there are no ships on the show. Take all the subtext floating around and read all the wonderful fan-fic out there for whatever ship floats your boat. There is something for everyone.

For the primary characters, the biggest problem is that the show has been so hell bent on developing the men that they have neglected the women. They have taken a backseat as far as overall character development. Certainly each has had their time to shine in a show here and there. And we have gotten some back story on each of them. The only problem? With JJ and Prentiss, it has been inconsistent. At least Elle was consistent-at least that I can remember.

The problem I had with Seaver was the fact that she didn't belong on the unit. There was no way on God's green earth that a cadet like her should have been offered the position. AT ALL. She wasn't the female equivalent of Spencer Reid-which would be the only reason she should have been offered a position. I can see bringing her in to consult on a particular case due to her background. But she should have graduated from the Academy, gotten her first posting and worked her way up the ladder. Then applied for the BAU. The contrivance fairy was working overtime and it pissed me off. Had they written a better backstory for her, I might have accepted her. Now I don't dislike or blame the actress. No, I blame the writers and producers.

Now we come to the meat of the problem. The writers and producers simply don't know how to writer for the women on the show overall. Sometimes they show flashes of brilliance for them. There are shows where our ladies shine. But the backstories on all of them are inconsistent, weak and thin. More time is devoted to the men on the show and it really pisses me off.

[thecowboycliche.livejournal.com]

+1 for this comment. I don't think I have anything to add other than I agree with what you wrote here. And you put it more eloquently than I did. XD

[define-serenity.livejournal.com]

Much though I adore Reid and all of the male cast, I'm noticing that the double standard we've all been accusing CBS of in regards to their not valuing women is surprisingly (and hypocritically) apparent within our own fanbase.

THIS. ALL OF THIS! i'll be the first to admit that i didn't care much for Seaver's introduction (her father being a serial killer that was specifically pertinent to their case) but she grew on me in subsequent episodes. i've never felt any particular dislike towards any other female character (i've often wondered if this is bc i don't ship any team members het or slash) - though i will say that i preferred Emily over Elle immediately.

i've often felt that the hate for Haley stemmed from her inability to "understand" Hotch, or her unwillingness to stay with him for as long as he chose work over his family - fans put Hotch on a pedestal as leader of the team, but as a husband he did fail on more than one level imho. and then all this complaining that Haley should have known what she got herself into? they met in college/high school /before/ he started working as a prosecutor and /before/ he decided to go to the BAU. i think Haley made the best decision for her, her son, and in the end maybe even Hotch. /unpopular opinion

[gen-is-gone.livejournal.com]

Oops, I don't know how to edit posts! Thanks for telling me though!

[thecowboycliche.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree with you to a certain extent.

I really feel that most of the hate for Beth is from shippers who are bitter that their ship will never happen, apparently because of her presence. I'd like to point out that their ship isn't going to happen in canon regardless of her presence because the show runners have already made that clear. Personally, I really like Beth and think she's great for Hotch. But she doesn't ruin any ships of mine, so maybe that's why.

As for Ashley, I liked her. I feel like a lot of the hate for her was because she "replaced" Paget and AJ and because the writers didn't do her character any justice. Her introduction and characterization were poor, I feel. They could have done so much better with her but for whatever reason chose not to.

I think this show is strange in a way.. we all get very attached to our favorite characters (Reid is my baby. Don't touch my baby.) but the show originally wasn't designed to focus as much on the profilers. It was supposed to focus on the cases. It's gotten to the point where having seven main characters means that they're almost fighting for attention. And shipping... that's a natural part of fandom, tbh. Because the show gives us absolutely none of that and has told us to not expect any, we kind of build them up ourselves to the point where we're all fiercely loyal to them. This show's got 4 good looking male leads, each different in their own way. Sometimes fangirls don't like to think about women other than the ones they've chosen as being with them, so when these women get introduced there's automatic hate.

Now I hate to bring this up, but... you guys do realize that with Paget leaving, it's likely we're going to get a new female character on the show to "replace" her, so to speak. So the drama isn't over.

[gen-is-gone.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Those were my feelings on Ashley, and I was annoyed at CBS's casting because I do think that choosing an actress that physically similar to the woman she was replacing was an insult, intentional or not. But I thought that from a non-Doylist perspective, (that is, not considering the Real Life wank) she had potential at least.

Wait, what about Paget leaving?!

[nwjarvis.livejournal.com]

Well, while I definitely agree that new-character-hate seems to be a tradition, it's hardly confined to this fandom. I'm not sure how much of a double standard it is, though, mostly because we haven't really had many new male characters introduced - and Rossi certainly had plenty of his own anti-fans when he came on, and I remember a lot of posters who absolutely couldn't stand Will - he was just so obviously wrong for JJ. So I think it's hard to draw specific conclusions about whether the hating is directed toward female characters or toward all new characters.

That having been said, I'd like to comment on a few specifics:

I never saw Haley as the bad guy. I know, I know, she was giving "Our Hotch" grief, but who wouldn't be? Hotch was morphing from a loving husband and father who happened to work for the FBI into a obsessed driven FBI Agent who happened to have a wife and child. She was losing him to The Job, and she hated it, as who wouldn't have? It was like seeing him become an alcoholic; there was always going to be another case, and another one, and another one. Hotch had become Sir Bors, who chose to rescue the abducted maiden rather than his own brother. Even when offered the chance to run a White-Collar crime task force, he can't do it - he has to keep chasing the "monsters". We don't like to admit it to ourselves, but Hotch wasn't a very good husband.

I never quite "got" those who thought JJ was window dressing. My time in the world of Emergency Services may have made it easier to appreciate her, but I always saw her role as the "pivot point" of the team's function. Not only did she primarily choose the cases they took, once they were in the field she was generally at the center of everything, interfacing with the victims and/or their families, local law enforcement, and working the media (which is an art in itself) as well as steering the team where they needed to go. She was Hotch's right arm, taking care of the details so he could concentrate on catching the bad guys. I think the scripts suffer from not having her - or someone - in that role.

Seaver - well, I really had nothing against the actress but I thought her whole presence was strange. We've been told over and over about how "elite" the BAU team is - and they are - so it was just ridiculous to put a brand new academy graduate into the mix. Her so-called "special insight" into serial killers was in no way a substitute for experience. And in RL, don't even THINK about applying to the BAU if you don't have a post-grad degree or two. I understand that there's such a thing as "suspension of disbelief", but this was just too far out there to be even a little believable. And while TPTB may deny it, it's just hard to swallow that she wasn't deliberately made to look superficially like JJ - they even changed the red hair she had previously to blonde and put it in a style almost identical to JJs. As I said, I have nothing against the actress but Seaver's presence was so jarring it was very hard for me to accept her as a character.

I know Jordan was temporary, but I thought she did just fine. She painted a good picture of what it's like to gamely try to do a job you're not suited for. She butted heads with Morgan, sure, but she should have. In my book, Morgan stuck his nose in where it didn't belong - Jordan misspoke, but Morgan (trying to play the Big Damn Hero) compounded matters by making her look like an idiot in front of the detective; he needed to be slapped down, and I think it's to her credit that she wasn't afraid to do it.

(Continued...)

[scotchsour.livejournal.com]

JJ was good at the original job and she made sense in my head as media liaison so that's why I can't understand her being a profiler and Garcia has now the job (sorry but makes no sense in my head). I have a feeling this is more a writer change (bad) than realistic development which she's goes back to that job (good).

[nwjarvis.livejournal.com]

(Continued - post got too big)

And finally, Beth. Brace yourselves: I LIKE BETH. There, I said it. I think she is a good-hearted lady who likes Hotch quite a lot. I think she "arranged" to meet Hotch because she saw someone she was attracted to, checked around and found out a bit about him, and set up a "meet-cute" that gave him a chance to decline gracefully if he wasn't interested. I think she's interested, but not in a rush. I like the way she recognizes his awkwardness and finds ways to ease it. I like that she didn't press to meet Jack, and didn't give Hotch a funny look when he introduced her to Jack as his "friend". I like that she didn't insert herself into the "team" group at the finish line - she seems to be quite willing for Hotch to introduce her in his own way and in his own time. While I don't want the Hotch-Beth story line to take center-stage, I like seeing Hotch smile and I think Beth does that very well.

Oh, and I'm also inclined to hope they don't replace Emily. It wouldn't hurt the show for the cast to be a little smaller.

[bowie28.livejournal.com]

I was in 'Supernatural' fandom so I've had my share of discussions about misogyny in fandom. It's common in all fandoms, especially in ones emphasis on slash. While there are several reasons (http://fanlore.org/wiki/Misogyny_in_Fandom) behind this seemingly strange negativity towards female characters, for me it's very simple. As long as I know where the characters are coming from, I won't attack their existence. Whether or not I like them or feel indifferent towards them or hate them is a matter of preferences and life experiences. I find myself uneasy with characters whose existence seems unfounded. For a show like CM where the writers invest like five minutes an episode to develop existing characters, it's not surprising that some people are suspicious of new characters who magically appear and are written to have significant impact on canonical characters (i.e. Kevin on Garcia, Will on JJ, Beth on Hotch/Jack, etc.). It's like when you meet your best friend's boyfriend/girlfriend for the first time. You want to make sure they have your friend's best interest at heart as well.

All I'm saying is, it's always going to take some time for people to warm up to new characters. If the writing is good enough, (sensible) people will come around.

[gsyh.livejournal.com]

I thought Ashley was interesting in a Nathan Harris kinda way, that's how I read her sense of guilt. I adore Haley and I miss Elle - obviously she can't go on shooting rapists on her own, but um, finding it hard to hate her for putting down a predator who had drove a victim to suicide. I also side with Haley on her dispute with Hotch: Hotch needed Morgan to push him to call Haley when terrorists were going to attack the mall where his wife and child was going to be, if I was in her place and I found out about this, protocol be damned, I would divorce him on the spot.

I liked Jordan, whose function was to show that the job is not for everyone.



I just dislike Beth, and her annoying presence in the story, she was kinda cute when she first show up, but now I just want her to go away. As mentioned earlier:
http://criminalxminds.livejournal.com/1854272.html?thread=15500608#t15500608

Beth is a storytelling loose end. Will didn't show up again until after he's been dating JJ for a year, which was a great thing, because though I think he's kinda cute, there would have been No Point to us being shown JJ flying off to meet him every other weekend.

Beth is a waste of screentime. For Hotch's personal life, in addition to what a lot of people have asked for, more being daddy time in Jack instead of going on a date with Beth (it's cool if he goes, but why are we being shown this?), what about Jessica Brooks? Yanno, the sister of the (ex-)wife who was killed because of an unsub's thing for Hotch? That's story relevant subplot with enough drama to hold its own. I rather hear about the Hotch/Beth thing from the Jessica and Jack POV than seeing Hotch and Beth fool around precious screentime.


...and speaking of people I rather see than Beth and that we NEED to see: What about Ambassador Prentiss? Like, dude, her daughter just came back from the dead! ...and as skilled as Emily was, her Secret Agent Woman stuff are probably secret, so I believe that Ambassador Prentiss are probably on first name basis with Strauss, and could have also shown up for Erin during the drinky drinky arc.


I don't want to see Beth eating screentime in yet another episode again, so near the end of the series, or end of the series with Prentiss at least. Maybe show her and Hotch finally having a serious moment talking about the loss of their fathers to disease, and then fade out and let us imagine the rest.

As is, even though they say Beth is supposed to make Hotch happy so they probably won't make her an unsub, unsub is how I'm reading Beth:
When They Ask Why: http://bau-fic.livejournal.com/1593872.html

...cause the last time we had a love interest introduced and fast-track like this, it was a lead up to the douche shooting Penelope! Down to the details of the team teasing Penelope about her new love interest. Both Jason Clark Battle and Beth Clemmons are complete strangers who approached Hotch and Penelope while they are alone in an easily anonymous setting, unknown to other people in their lives, unknown in what they do and who they know and where they are from - except from what they have told Penelope and Hotch. Both of them pushed for a date and the date was at night (I think lunch dates in broad daylight public place is the way to go for stranger first dates), and it just feels too fast.


...and most of all, the thing that annoys me as a woman about the Beth storyline is this:
Beth is much less a female character, and more A Male Character's Girlfriend As much as I like Hotch, I don't need to know that much about His GF or BF.
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBechdelTest

I'm annoyed that execs seem to think that lady fans would be pleased by a romance plot with A Male Character's Girlfriend in place of more stuff on Emily or JJ or Garcia or even Strauss, I feel that it's coming from the same place as paint everything targetted toward girls pink, I do like paint, but Yanno What I Mean?

[bowie28.livejournal.com]

This is very informative. It's clearing up many things for me on why I feel so conflicted about Beth appearance on the show. Thank you. I believe that with good writing, one short scene can make a character feel real. It's been three episodes and she still feels as perplexing as she did the first time she showed up. The writers need to work on that.

[mcgarrygirl78.livejournal.com]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying...the fans are way harsh particularly on female characters. I didnt see half this kind of backlash when Rossi replaced Gideon and those who didnt like it had mellowed out by Season 4. I remember the horrible hatred Emily received in the beginning, Jordan the whole time she was there, and some fans lit Ashley Seaver on fire and danced around her corpse (though like others here I blame Ashley on bad writing, the character had potential to grow she just came at the worse time).

I like Beth, I liked her from her first scene because I looked at her as a new character, not Hotch's girlfriend. Here's a woman who thought a cute guy was cute and she put herself out there. She's training for a triathlon, she laughs, she just lost her dad....we have a lot to learn about her that could be really cool. She's not FBI and she's not like Haley, this is someone completely different who we're not going to see a lot but hopefully will get to see more. I for one would love to see Hotch in her world and how he would just be normal Aaron.

I too was really taken aback by the intense heat of the hatred for Beth. I'm a Hotch/Prentiss and have been since Haley walked out on Hotch. But I've always separated the game from the truth....canon is canon and fic is fic. I write Hotch/Beth now, I want to see them grow, I like her period. Its hard to fill the needs of the procedural and the character driven needs fans get because they ultimately fall for the characters they watch every week. I would like to see where this relationship goes now that the training/triathlon aspect is going to be gone from it. But if she gets too much screen time as opposed to other people's partners, like Will and Kevin, expect more noise I would think.

[sam-maddy.livejournal.com]

I really like Beth. I think it might have to do with the fact that I really like the actress who plays her. I've liked Bellamy Young ever since she guested on Supernatural as the late wife of Nick, the guy who was Lucifer's first vessel. Anyway, I really like the interaction between Beth and Hotch. Hotch hsa been through so much in recent years so it's nice to see him connect with a woman. I've read a lot of comments from people who want Beth to be an unsub. I hope that doesn't happen.

I didn't care for Ashley Seaver. I think that was mainly b/c of the way she was written. She changed her last name so people wouldn't connect her to her father the serial killer. However, after she meets the team, she promptly tells them who her dad is. What was the point of changing her last name if she was going to do that? I wish that the writers had had Seaver get to know the team a little better before she shared her family's darkest secret. It felt too much like they were trying to make a case for why an FBI cadet was suddenly working with the BAU, when we've been told in the past how hard it is to get into the BAU in the first place.

[ansera.livejournal.com]

SO THAT'S HOW I KNOW HER. I was wondering where. Thanks for clearing that up. :D (not that I particularly like her or want to see more of her, but yeah, I just would rather see more team moments, or Jack-Daddy moments than her tbh)

[cold-ember-32.livejournal.com]

The thing I’ve noticed in the CM fandom is that it’s one of the least accepting of new characters. A lot of people seem to live in fear that every new character, no matter how minor or temporary, will completely destroy the team chemistry and ruin the show forever, which I think is absurd, honestly. I’ve always noticed that the willingness to accept new characters varies from series to series and while nearly every fandom has a overall kneejerk negative reaction to a character that replaces another major character, CM seems to do it for anyone who wanders in for more than one episode. Honestly, I wasn’t fond of Jordan Todd (her character just rubbed me the wrong way for some reason, though there were a few moments when I liked her, but overall I just wasn’t a fan) but I was really taken aback at how vocal a lot of people were about her – after all, we all knew that she was only going to be around until AJ Cook’s maternity leave was over, so what was the big deal if she wasn’t the greatest character in the history of humanity?

Haley irritated the hell out of me sometimes when I was watching episodes for the first time, but I always understood where she was coming from, especially after I rewatched the episodes, and I felt like a lot of people were too busy being 100% on Hotch’s side to take a minute to think about it from her perspective. Loads of people said she “knew what she was getting into” so she had no right to whine, but no, she really didn’t. They were high school sweethearts and they got married, I assume (since I don’t think they ever game us a hard date on when they married), well before he joined the BAU, let alone became the team leader. After all, there was college, him going to law school, being a prosecutor, and then joining the FBI before he got into the BAU. While we don’t see much of the marriage when it’s still good, it’s certainly good at the very beginning of the series, which tells me that she put up with this for years before it became an issue – a year or so after Jack was born, really, seems like where she got fed up with him never being around. It’s not like she met him when he was already in the BAU, married him, and then a couple of years later get fed up with it and it always bugged me when people acted like that was the case. I thought her character did a great job of reminding viewers that as difficult as BAU life is for the team, it also takes quite the toll on their loved ones. Too bad a lot of viewers didn’t actually take it that way and just treated her like a cartoon villain who was too self-centered to understand.

I’m apparently among the small minority that didn’t hate Ashley. I didn’t particularly like her character, either, but I do like the actress. I saw quite a bit of her on Alias and I think that she’s a good actress. She’s not one of my favorite, but I like her well enough. I thought she did pretty well on CM with what she got from the scripts – which wasn’t a whole hell of a lot. The writers didn’t want to get rid of JJ and I always felt that showed through with Ashley’s character. I really thought the premise for her character was interesting because every week we see how people are immediately impacted by these psychos, but seeing how it informs someone’s life years down the road was, I thought, really interesting. When they cast Rachel Nichols I thought that she’d be perfect for the type of character they’d described – again, going back to her Alias days, I knew she could pull off playing a young, vulnerable badass. And I still maintain that she was perfect for the role, had it been done correctly. I always felt like she got screwed just as much as AJ and Paget in the whole deal because the writers wanted to use her character to make a point – she was, essentially, a sacrificial lamb in the whole thing. I would have liked to see her character used as, perhaps, a recurring guest star or something, rather than a full BAU member, which I always found ridiculous (a rookie fresh out of the academy in one of the most prestigious units in all of law enforcement? Please). But I didn’t think she rated the overwhelming hatred that she got.

[cold-ember-32.livejournal.com]

I’m apparently way too long-winded for LJ, so here are the rest of my thoughts…

Jordan Todd was one that I, personally, wasn’t thrilled with. I just didn’t like her. It’s been awhile since I’ve seen her episodes, so I don’t remember exactly what it was about her that bothered me, but I know I didn’t particularly like her. But I knew she was only there for a handful of episodes, so it was never that big of a deal to me. Other people reacted like she was going to be around forever, which seemed a bit silly to me, but whatever.

I don’t get why everyone is so up in arms about Beth. It’s not like she’s taking over the show and it’s been ages since Haley died – and even longer since Hotch and Haley got divorced – so I honestly don’t get the problem. Jack is growing up and he has friends and school and activities – one of which is the soccer team that Hotch coaches, so clearly Hotch makes time for Jack. But the fact remains that Hotch, like the rest of the team, has free time that we don’t see on the show – we only see 24 cases a year on the show and while they’re generally busy as hell when we see them, they’re not going to spend and episode showing us Morgan spending a Saturday taking Clooney for a walk and then watching a Cubs game on TV, Rossi sitting hunched over his computer writing another book, Emily hanging out with her new boyfriend Sergio, Garcia and Kevin going out to dinner and a movie, and Reid sitting at home reading at the speed of light while Hotch, JJ and Will take Jack and Henry to the park because that’s not what the show is about. But obviously they have some downtime. There are plenty of indications of the show that they do have free time – Morgan fixes up old houses, Reid keeps getting loads of degrees, Rossi writes his books, JJ has a kid and…whatever her and Will are calling what they’re doing (parents with benefits?), Emily, JJ, and Garcia have their girls nights and we’ve seen the team hanging out in several episodes (and I can’t imagine that those were the only times it’s ever happened in the past 7 years) and so on. More to the point, we know that Hotch has more free time these days because Morgan took on a lot of the paperwork and other more tedious team leader duties after Haley died so that Hotch could have more time at home with Jack, which I’m sure is exactly what Hotch did after Haley died, but as time has passed Jack has gotten older and I’m sure he doesn’t spend all his time at home anymore. Is Hotch supposed to just sit around at home alone waiting for Jack or the BAU to need him again? And up until that one date Hotch and Beth were pretty much just training together – which Hotch was doing anyway, and which would tend to indicate that Hotch does, in fact, have some free time. I think the idea that she’s going to somehow mess with the team dynamic is insane. These people have lives outside of work. That’s just a fact. I’d find it so unbelievable if all any of them did was go to work and then go home and sleep, but I seem to be in the minority. I’m actually looking forward to seeing the dynamic with Hotch, Jack, and Beth because I think it could be really interesting to see if he reacts like a lot of the fandom (resentful that Beth is taking some of Hotch’s attention), or if he’s just happy to see his dad happy.

[citjara.livejournal.com]

This is a very interesting topic...

I'm just hazarding a few guesses here, but... do women maybe judge other women more harshly? I notice that the majority of posters in forums and discussions seem to be women. Do women just react this way towards potential rivals or ship-wreckers? Are we all (all sexes included, *g*) not handling change well? New characters always mean change...

I don't really *hate* characters, but I don't like all characters. One female character type that I rarely ever like is the "strong/badass/tough cop/abrasive/feminist women", which is why I don't really like Elle or Jordan. These characters just rub me the wrong way (Jordan more so than Elle), because I always feel like they are to tough to justify their existence in this job and also, they constantly seem to want to prove that they are better (then the men). Both had redeeming qualities, so I didn't hate them, but I was glad to see Jordan go and liked Emily almost from the get-go. So much of why I didn't care for either of them is really rooted more in the type of character that they represent than the actor or the actual character itself.

Haley I started out liking, seeing she put up with a lot from Hotch, but recently, I'm a bit more torn. I understand her, I feel for her, BUT I think she was being unfair to him towards the end of their marriage. Because of a ff-plot bunny, I'm currently mulling over that topic a lot, and it's made me see them both a bit more objectively.

I liked Emily almost from the get-go, but that was because a good friend of mine likes CM and Emily is her favorite character. I kinda was slated to like her... however, going back to what I said about character type above, I like Emily because she's a good agent first and a women second. Don't get me wrong, she is a female character, but I never get the feeling she claims to be good because she's a woman, but because she's got talent and experience,

I also REALLY like JJ. I like how she was soft and strong all at the same time. Looking back, she had fabolous moments, from "What Fresh Hell" on to "North Mammon" to "Open Season". She's always sympathetic, but uuuuuh-ooooh, if she needs to be tough, she will be... It's really a shame they cut this "Safe-Distance-New-Jersey" scene from Minimal Loss, as it would've added so much depth to her character. Who knows what else ended up on the cutting room floor...

I think it's hard to compare Will to some other recurrings, cause when he was introduced, he wasn't meant to be recurring. This grew more out of AJ pregnancy... have people been more understanding of him? Maybe, but then, we haven't seen him that much...

I did initially like Ashely Seaver, as her entrée was good. However, it fell flat after that, she seemed to have NOTHING to do and couldn't really offer any good insight apart from that first case... plus the fact that her backstory just was too contrived. The is a elite unit, you don't get onto it unless you're the Spencer Reid type or do have a good, good, good, good resumé.

While I do think they probably shouldn't replace Prentiss, I fear they might, and I also think this won't sit well with the fandom, especially if they shove her down our throats and if they should go for the very abrasive type. As I said somewhere else, I'd love to see a quieter, more laid back female, in the 35-45 age bracket, with loads of experience and a psych background (someone with experience in counselling murderers/serial killers would be cool). Probably someone with a family? My preference is no replacement, but if they have to, that's the type of character I'd like to see...

[full-metal-ox.livejournal.com]

Nor would it hurt if such a character were of color.

[full-metal-ox.livejournal.com]

One name has scarcely been mentioned throughout--should I take that to mean that everyone likes Garcia?

[liliaeth]

Garcia has the advantage that she fits a specific type of character, the nerdy quirky girl that we are all supposed to relate to. She actually has her looks on her side on that one.

[nytekit.livejournal.com]

This post is very interesting to me (I even read most of the comments before responding), mainly because I've kind of been out of the fandom for the past months, so I didn't even know there was Beth!hate going on. And I'm still not sure why there would be (unless it's the extreme shippers that many mentioned below). Her character doesn't even have a big enough role to hate! Her entire purpose is to show that Hotch is healing and moving on, and I appreciate her for that. She's doing her part.

As for the other characters, I'll come right out and say A LOT of them had to grow on me. Seaver's character I hated and I doubt would have improved. The writing for her was just awful and I think it was kind of a low blow of CBS to even bring her on after getting rid of JJ and Prentiss for "money/creative reasons". But on the other hand, I liked Jordan Todd. She did have some friction in the beginning but that didn't even last long. She was just trying to feel her way, as far as I'm concerned, and she did a good job. Hayley I always liked. I will admit to getting angry with her when she left Hotch but at the same time I understood her reasoning. She wasn't wrong and I cried a flood when she died. I was even opposite with the main characters because I loved JJ best when she was media liaison. I still like her now, but I miss her as her other role because she was more distinctive there than as another profiler. Prentiss had to grow on me but I always found her character interesting. Rossi I disliked from jump but felt better about once he became a team player. And I thought I liked Gideon until I watched the reruns a few seasons after he left. Then I realized I hated him and preferred the new team dynamic.

For me, at least, the biggest thing about a new character is how well they get along with the other characters. The relationship factor is how I decide who I like best (although as a severe lover of Morgan-Reid scenes, I did get upset when they started putting Prentiss between that). However, I do see what you mean about the female characters even in other fandoms. And I'd hate to say it, but it really just mirrors real life. Men initially accept new men and women easily accept new attractive men, while both men and women initially question new women. I guess this even applies to fictional characters and fandom adoration.

[dhae_knight_1]

Well... I can only speak for myself, obviously, having only just discovered CM in November and powering through the entire series. So maybe I view it differently because I didn't space my viewing out so much.

I disliked Gideon. That's not a very popular thing, is it? I found him to be overbearing, too concerned with how the team reflected on him and thught of him and too little on actually being a decent human being.

I disliked Elle. She seemed to have a chip on her shoulder (and, as it turned out, she did). I think her character was well-written and well-executed, I just have too much trouble finding balance in my own life to enjoy watching a fictional charater teetering that much on the edge of the knife.

I liked Todd. She was feisty and cool, and I liked that she knuckled down and admitted that she wasn't cut out for the job.

I disliked Seaver. Her only qualifying trait (it seemed) was having had a serial-killer for a father. Of course, it didn't help that the writer's didn't really know what they wanted to do with her, nor that she was, pretty much, brought in as the replacement for Prentiss and JJ, both popular characters. I don't think it's entirely fair to lay the entire blame for the fans hating on her at the fans' doorsteps, to be honest.

I liked Haley as a character, but not as a person in the build-up to the divorce. Part of that is that Hotch is my favorite character, so obviously I'm going to take his side, part of it is that the writers hit a few of my triggers (particularly her passive-aggressive behavior, and her apparent need to change Hotch), and part of it is that once you've been out on the limb of stress, you know *exactly* what it feels like to give everything you have and to do that and have it still not be enough... Yeah.

I like Will. Mostly because his story is told appropriately around the edges and in the interstices. His story is JJ-centric, and we don't really need more than the occasional glimpse into their lives. A phone-call where we never hear his voice can speak volumes.

I like Xander - sorry, Kevin. Most of the reason in the slip of the keys, and the rest in the fact that we don't see much of him, either. And that he, like Will, has a life outside romantic interest, and has to deal with how those two collide by himself.

And then there was Beth. Who I genuinely don't like. It's not that I mind Hotch having a girlfriend (seriously, good for him!). It's more that her introduction's been an odd amalgam of getting to know and see too much of her in too short a time, yet not having her fleshed out as a character. Someone above had done the math. We've had about seven minutes with Beth, and I have no idea who she is, as a person, aside from being Hotch's girlfriend. None. From a show which stands out (or used to) for it's ability to create bit-characters who came to life with two lines of dialogue and thirty seconds on-screen that's... Depressing. Either show me who she is, as a person (no, knowing that she runs in the part, cheats to win, and her dad died of cancer isn't enough, although cheating to win helps), or try to show as little of her as possible. Or, better still; do both! Rossi has a way of knowing everything, he could cover a lot. Hotch could struggle with having Garcia run a background-check on her for Jack's sake. Jack could have issues (or not!) with his daddy dating a strange woman. We could cover a lot of ground just by using the team and characters we already know.

To sum up (oh, god, it's too late for that, isn't it?), I find it very hard to separate (for fandom, not for myself, obviously) where the hatred for new characters is misogynistic and where it's simply characters being handled badly by the PTB's.