Women and the Fans...

[gen-is-gone.livejournal.com]

So, it isn't Monday, but who's up for a little discussion anyway? Namely, about some of the women on our show. Now, I've been following recent ep discussion posts and I'm noticing a few strange similarities between fan reaction to Hotch's new jogging partner,(and now girlfriend) Beth and former co-star Ashley Seaver, played by Rachel Nichols. Now, before you get into the long rants about her physical similarities to JJ or her supposedly bland acting, hear me out: the abject hatred some fans felt toward her was disconcerting to say the least, and so I am upset (though not really surprised) to hear that new character Beth is getting the same treatment.

I'm honestly indifferent towards Beth because there isn't much to her character yet, but character development happens over time. Frankly, I'm tired of the witch hunts Criminal Minds' fanbase goes on every time a new (or not so new) female character gets introduced. I remember the discussion posts leading up to 100 and at least 50% of all of the Haley related comments saying that they hoped she'd die. And then she did, and the few who actually lacked the shame to cheer for a violent murder were subsequently shouted down. Now that it's been two years, people seem to like her more. And let us not forget Ashley and Jordan Todd, neither of whom got the chance to develop as characters because the (mostly female) fans pitched a dozen fits. And to rewind even farther, remember all the Elle fans (where have they gone I wonder...) complaining after her first introduction in 'The Last Word' that Emily was an Ice Bitch and a robot? You certainly won't see them around anymore. I wish that for once criminalxminds would shut up about female characters long enough to get to know them. Much though I adore Reid and all of the male cast, I'm noticing that the double standard we've all been accusing CBS of in regards to their not valuing women is surprisingly (and hypocritically) apparent within our own fanbase. Now, I know Will and Kevin still have quite the hatedom of their own, but they're mostly getting flack from over-the-top shippers, while Haley, Elle, Emily, Jordan, Ashley and Beth were at varying points treated with an appalling amount of suspicion and out right hatred. So, what do you think? Agree? Disagree? Want to rip my throat out? I'm not trying to come off as rude, I would love to better understand why so many people find fault with such seemingly innocuous women.

Comments

[chreesko.livejournal.com]

Some of the hatred expressed by some fans towards Haley was due to the fact that the writers painted her as a villain in the relationship.

I agree with your post overall, especially the part about the men getting more time/attention than the women, but I think this is what is being touched on in this post. The writers didn't paint Haley as a villain. Fandom did that.* With the Hotch/Haley thing, I think one reason (not the only reason, but one) the Haley-as-villain viewpoint took hold is because fans jumped on her as a woman being mean to poor widdle Hotch, when the reality the writers were getting at was that both Hotch and Haley were at fault.

The writers showed a series of events. Haley as the villain is one way to interpret what happened, but there are also others. It's just that fandom tends to always latch onto the one that portrays the woman badly. Because really, if you look back at Hotch's arc over the course of the show, it's equally valid to interpret it as the writers ultimately portrayingd Haley as being right: she was afraid Hotch's job would hurt their family, and it did; she was afraid his job would break him, and it almost did; she said he needed to spend more time with his family, and now that he seems to be finding some semblance of happiness again, that's exactly how he's doing it.

* I know there are lots of different viewpoints in fandom, but it's been my experience -- not just with CM fandom, but almost all the fandoms I've been in, ever -- that the loudest fans are the ones that also hate women the most. And that's a problem.

[paksenarrion2.livejournal.com]

They didn't paint Haley as a villain in the first couple of season, no. But once they determined they wanted to break them up, all of a sudden Haley had a huge problem with Hotch's job. And the inference was there that she was having an affair-even if they didn't take it any further. Personally I think they both bear fault for the breakdown of the marriage but the writers definitely made her out to be a real bitch at times.

And yes, he did need to find more balance. But she went about it the wrong way, imo. Hotch can outstubborn anyone and instead of asking for a compromise when things started getting bad, she threw it at him when they were angry and in the heat of the moment (writers choice obv). It just seemed to me that the writers painted her as someone who felt that it had to be her way or the highway. And I hated it because I felt that she shouldn't be that bad. There had to be a good person there if Hotch fell in love with her, married her and had a child with her. So I hated the writers for the character assassination. But
I never hated Haley.

[citjara.livejournal.com]

I think something that they never *showed* us but what might have happened is that having Jack changed Haley and changed what she wanted and expected from her husband. But as said, that never was clearly expressed on screen.

[chreesko.livejournal.com]

Well, this is kind of what I meant in my comment when I said that there are harsher standards for the women. Haley's dissatisfaction didn't come out of nowhere. The show actually set it up pretty well. A serial killer showed up at her door at the end of S1 and put her and her child in direct danger for the first time (I know he was just dropping something off, but imagine if he had wanted to harm them like he did Elle). And fans like to talk about how manipulative Haley was when she showed up at the office when Hotch missed Jack's doctor appointment, but you never hear them say, "Hey, Hotch, missing your child's doctor appointment? Dick move." Or, "Hey, Hotch. Spending your two weeks of suspension leave at home acting like you can't wait to get away from your wife and child? Dick move." Or, "Hey, Hotch. Spending time at work when you didn't have to, even going so far as to take on extra paperwork that isn't yours to begin with? Really dick move."

Because we were shown all those things onscreen, too. And yet the focus is always on Haley and her actions and how she was unreasonable. I'm not saying that she came across perfectly, either, but why is Haley always the manipulative, bitchy one when, in fact, we have more canon instances of Hotch manipulating people to get what he wants, like the doctor in Angel Maker? Why doesn't anyone ever call Hotch manipulative and bitchy, even though he was? Why don't people focus on the fact that Hotch is somehow finding time for his child now that he's a single parent, but couldn't be bothered to do it when his child had another parent alive? Or the fact that, for Hotch, doing Morgan's paperwork was more important than saving his marriage?

I mean, I'm not hating on Hotch. He's actually my favorite character. But I love him because of his good points and his flaws; those flaws might be unpleasant to think about, but they make him a richer character. Putting aside the issue of why fans think certain behavior is okay coming from men but not from women, it's actually a disservice to the character and the writers to flatten him out and pretend he didn't bear as much fault as she did.

ETA: I think sometimes these discussions are difficult because one person is talking about how fandom as a whole responds and another person is talking about how they feel about a specific character's actions, like when I was talking to citjara above. But that miscommunication is why it's even more important IMO to hold the men to the same standard as we do the women, because how can we as a fandom rationally discuss the character if our assumptions are based in biases that unfairly judge women?