criminalxminds | That thing we are discussing about 5x01

That thing we are discussing about 5x01

The dialog from the scene:
F: Do you want to see my scars? What do you think? Do you like them? Yours are gonna look just the same
H: My team
F: Your team, your team didn't catch me untill I wanted them to. You're not in charge so don't be foolish. Now try to relax. Your body will go numb (knife goes in) and it goes in so much easier if you relax. The hard part is not passing out from the pain. (Foyet pulls the knife our slowly) Now I understand that profilers think that stabbing is a substitution for the act of sex, that if somebody is impotent, they'll use a knife instead. Is that what you think agent Hotchner? Maybe this will change the way you profile. (knife goes in)

So what do you think did the scene mean?

[Poll #1462291]

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Just as soon as people have the time to write them. Over the weekend i guess?

*waits (im)patiently*

Yes! This exactly. This is what I've been thinking. Legal aspect aside, the whole scene was framed like a rape. It calls to question, emotionally speaking, whether genital contact is necessary for an act to be called a rape. Certainly Hotch has been violated. The word "rape" seems to be tripping a lot of people up. I think the point here is that it IS rape, even if Hotch remained fully clothed during it all. So many people (not necessarily here in this comm, I mean in general) have a rigid definition of rape: men can't possibly be raped, men can't be raped by women, women can't rape other women, etc, etc. I think the show is making one question one's definitions and preconceived notions, like it always does.

cross your fingers...
I will.

the one thought that crossed my mind when that whole thing happened (watching it a second time of course..) Dang i wonder how many takes they had to do of that.. I bet TG and CH.. really grew closer to each other then they wanted to in that scene..

and fan fiction.. link us up people.. ill read it! :-)

Maybe this will change the way you profile.

That, to me, says a lot. I don't think it had anything to do with rape or emasculation. For the longest time, Foyet kept the BAU baffled because they couldn't properly analyze the victimology pertaining to his crimes. I think Foyet simply wanted to show Hotch that he cannot be put in a box and be assigned a specific profile just like the other killers.

I agree

Yes. I think he wanted Hotch to know that their profiles can be wrong and that it isn't the answer to solving everything. I think Foyet also wants to be thought of as "unprofilable"

Yeah, except I don't think he was cut in the privates. Mostly because he's back on the job next week. ;) But I guess we get to wait and see (and I expect it will be several episodes before anything comes out, one way or the other). Clever writers.

I'm with you guys. I think they were making it look and feel a LOT like rape scene (or the beginnings of one). If Foyet was trying to refute the profile implying he was impotent (and I think that much is obvious) then all that "he just really likes stabbing as a metaphor" and "he was telling Hotch he was capable of having sex and expected Hotch to take his stabby word for it" just doesn't follow, as it would not alter the profile at all.

But, as someone else said, there are different definitions of rape or sexual violence. I have no doubts that Foyet was behaving sexually with Hotch, but that doesn't mean he had to take Hotch's clothes off to demean him sexually and prove that he (Foyet) could 'perform.'

It's an icky, squishy place that is broader and deeper than most definitions of what is and isn't rape. I have my doubts as to whether they'll 'go there' but I hope they do, because it could actually bring some awareness about male rape.

Continuity is not CM's strong suit!

*points to SGA and CSI* In the absolute sense, not as much so as a single-author novel. But comparitively? They're pretty damn on-target. The thing with writing for TV is that you do have to exercise care not to drive away huge chunks of your viewership, which means going easy on plotlines that fall outside the general premise of your show.

And I was so happy to see that drug-addiction plotline go away that I cannot possibly tell you. ^^

DragonLady

I hope you're right, because even if he wasn't raped in a narrow definition f the term, Foyet was definitely getting off on hurting him, showing off his body (and even making Hotch's wounds mirror his) while hurting him.

I have my doubts as to whether they'll 'go there' but I hope they do, because it could actually bring some awareness about male rape.

While a part of me feels that Hotch has been through enough damage and a confirmed sexual assault could be the breaking point, I would certainly be interested in seeing where they go with the rape of a main cast character. It is ripe for both something groundbreaking and powerful and something sloppy and poorly handled.

And I'm most concerned about how they will handle it if they do go there. Perhaps it is the setup of a crime procedural, but CM has not been particularly stellar at handling personal character issues/trauma/PTSD -- Reid's drug habit and, more specific to Hotch, the strong implication in "Natural Born Killers" way back in Season 1 that Hotch had an abusive childhood, and then... nothing.

LOL, [info]thelana - you've really analyzed every possible angle :)

Heh, I try ;)

I really wish I knew my own reaction to the scene, but unfortunately I spoiled myself on the discussion before I watched it. I did think that the whole thing came across as very sexualized even back when the first promos of Foyet shirtless came out.

I tend to lean towards "the writers want it to seem sexulized, but have no intention of following up" and the "Foyet wants to show him he loves stabbing all on its own" options. The option that maybe he was pressing up on Hotch while stabbing Hotch for example seems really sensible to me.

I also agree that in a way the details don't matter that much because Hotch was majorly violated either way, his home, his body, his sense of security, etc. And yes, I really want to know what comes next and whether it will change how Hotch is in the field.

I also think that one factor in me leaning towards "no" is that in a way I feel it might be too redundant to Morgan's story. But I have heard some good arguments from the other side too (and I do think that CM essentially saying "this is a rough job, in this universe, really crappy stuff like this totally happens and they get over it" would be an interesting thing to do, especially since they tend to drop this on the male characters (Morgan, Reid and Hotch stories) rather than the female ones (Emily got "taking a beating" and Elle got "being tempted to take law into her own hands and go rogue"). Emasculation would be more creative to me, more unusual, but I can't help but feel like the evidence on it is not enough so far to make me think that's what happened. Poor continuity in procedurals aside, I still hope have the hope that we'll hear something more on this either way.

Either way, it's definitely interesting to see what people think :)

The thing with writing for TV is that you do have to exercise care not to drive away huge chunks of your viewership, which means going easy on plotlines that fall outside the general premise of your show.

I understand that a procedural's "crime of the week" setup involves sacrificing major character subplots, and that's why I feel a sense of trepidation if they decide to pick up the male rape storyline for Hotch.

They screwed up Reid's drug addiction and PTSD storyline; more specific to Hotch, they dropped the bombshell in "Natural Born Killers" way back in Season 1 that Hotch had an abusive childhood, and then... not just nothing, but confusing contradictions that have spawned so many theories but no proper answers.

CSI Miami had a one-off episode about a male victim who was raped, but it is completely different to have a main character experience rape and then not deal squarely with the consequences, uncomfortable and possibly "taboo" as that may be for fear of audience alienation. So if CM is thinking about playing it straight to preserve the vast majority of their squickable (non-fannish) viewers, then I'd rather they not open a controversial issue and then ignore it or make it magically go away. It simply does not do justice to something as grave and serious as rape.

Apart from it being AWFUL and OMG NOOO! --- emasculation seems so remote that I'd say it's impossible. I think that the doctors would have noted that, or at least Hotch would be in far greater pain and more traumatized than how we saw him.

I agree about the violation and I do think that as it was done, it was very well done to convey the multiple layers of violation, humiliation, manipulation and utter sense of helplessness from Hotch's POV. I would not be opposed to seeing the rape storyline developed in a well-done manner in fanfic, but my greatest reservation about them taking it to canon is that they don't go all the way and do it properly. That would be worse than just leaving it ambiguous (as it stands).

Also -- good point about how the male characters seem to be getting the roughest deal on this show. I don't think that (if Hotch were indeed sexually assaulted) that would be redundant to Morgan's story because the context is entirely different. Morgan was abused when he was a kid by a figure of authority, and maybe that made him want to go into law enforcement to catch bad guys (?). But Hotch suffered the abuse on the job, as an adult. I think the dynamics are entirely different and while there are similarities (such as hiding what happened) it won't be too much alike to feel like a redux.

I do believe it would easier for the writers to do a decent job at dealing with PTSD for non-physical/psychological rape than it would be for actual sexual assault, especially given the constraints of procedurals and their poor track record of continuity.

After some mulling I do have a couple of other theories about what happened -- maybe a sign that I should get back into writing CM fic, which has always been a great way of filling in the canon blanks :)

I'm most concerned about how they will handle it if they do go there

Same here. I really really want them to handle this well. I'm torn. Because I feel like CM has been outstanding in a lot of ways, with the way they go against expectations, the stereotypes, but at the same time, it has been SO crappy with its continuity. >.<

But the deconstruction of Aaron Hotchner has been a steady thread through the show since day one. So I don't want to believe that they don't have some sort of payoff to all this build-up and dread.

I'm a huge TV cynic, but I have faith in CM, which terrifies me. I believe CM will deliver, because I feel like they're fairly self-aware, that they know they're knocking on the doors of a LOT of tricky issues. What happened to Hotch here, this is HUGE. CM may have its fail moments, but I can't begin to imagine they'd mess this up.

They'd better not anyway.

I understand that a procedural's "crime of the week" setup involves sacrificing major character subplots [...] So if CM is thinking about playing it straight to preserve the vast majority of their squickable (non-fannish) viewers, then I'd rather they not open a controversial issue and then ignore it or make it magically go away.

It's not the "crime of the week" setup that's the problem. It's the bottom line that's the issue.

A procedural (which focuses on the work) and a drama (which focuses on the character's personal lives) attract very different audiences. Sometimes shows can jump demographics and stay popular. Often, though, when a show tries to jump demographics it finds that the audience it's aiming for won't try it and the audience it had now doesn't want it, and the show bombs out. When shows bomb networks lose money and network execs know that. They also know that if a show gets too controversial or edgy, companies won't want their commercials on during the show for fear that the Moral Guardians will boycott them or that people will associate their product with controversy and edge. That lowers ad impressions for the show and costs the network money. Networks care about making money more than anything.

All of which I'm certain you know, of course.

That being said, I think the CM PTBs deserves a break because no matter how thoughtful and realistic they wish to be, they have to answer to execs who see only the bottom line -- and we the audience have no way of knowing how much of what we see is the writers or the network. All it takes is one exec to say "no one would ever take the commander seriously if you go on and on about his abused childhood" (no matter how wrong that may be) and there goes that plotline. In the case of male rape, touch-and-go implication literally may be the best handling of the situation that is within the writing staff's power.

Foyet's scene is getting people thinking and talking about male rape which, IMO, is at least a step in the right direction.

DragonLady

:) :) :) :)

I have to say, scouting through some CM fic, I realized I'm so not used to again be in a fandom where there are actually people who write longer fic! Or a lot of long Gen fic!

I think the thing about procedurals is that they are designed so people can start watching at any stand alone episode and still enjoy it even if they don't know the backgrounds of any of the characters. They are also designed to work well in reruns, again, being written in a way that people can jump in at any time. Because of this, characters have to be pretty recognizable, but also pretty stagnant.

I do think that CM is still better than most so far. For example Bones gives a much larger portion to the personal lives of the characters but the fans also complain about there being constant character continuity problems, particularly in the form of characters being "reset", either because they need them to be quirky and odd again even though technically, in canon, the character should have moved beyond that already or because a major event that should have affected the characters longterm is quickly forgotten. So more focus on the personal apparently is no insurance against poor character continuity it seems.

i'm not saying that the doctors or emily missed it. they just don't mention it. i just think, cm had some mucky stuff in the past, something like that wouldn't surprise me.

gah, that scene freaked me out! when he started taking off his shirt, i was all *hide behind a pillow*. he's scary, man. my take on it was that foyet wanted to show hotch that he couldn't be profiled, because the stabbing wasn't sexual. but now i don't know! the fact that hotch told emily that he couldn't remember what had happened after the first stab, did he lie because it was rape? or did he lie because of the things foyet told him? or didn't he lie at all? maybe he actually couldn't remember, but i took those flashbacks as his own memories. i don't know.

Very intersting poll!!! I love all the possibilities. I hesitated a lot between :

- The writers wanted to suggest emasculation but have no intention of actually following through (aka they want to create an allusion but it's not what happened)

and :

- Foyet meant that he can have sex, but he actually likes stabbing more and Hotch also understood it that way via implication/conversation alone that stabbing has it's own appeal, on its own merits and Hotch will consider that during his next profiles

I voted first one...

But all the suggestions about the networks restrains are also very tempting...

Agree'd. Whether they show goes there or not, this cannot be ignored or passed over or explained away by another theory or take.

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