That thing we are discussing about 5x01

[thelana.livejournal.com]

The dialog from the scene:
F: Do you want to see my scars? What do you think? Do you like them? Yours are gonna look just the same
H: My team
F: Your team, your team didn't catch me untill I wanted them to. You're not in charge so don't be foolish. Now try to relax. Your body will go numb (knife goes in) and it goes in so much easier if you relax. The hard part is not passing out from the pain. (Foyet pulls the knife our slowly) Now I understand that profilers think that stabbing is a substitution for the act of sex, that if somebody is impotent, they'll use a knife instead. Is that what you think agent Hotchner? Maybe this will change the way you profile. (knife goes in)

So what do you think did the scene mean?

[Poll #1462291]

Comments

[babylil.livejournal.com]

I didn't take what Foyet said to imply anything sexual about the crime. In fact, I took it as completely the opposite - that Hotch was well aware that Foyet didn't have a sexual motive in stabbing him and that Foyet was suggesting Hotch should remember that when profiling stabbing in the future, and not assume it was sexual.

[scarimor.livejournal.com]

My take too. That's the interpretation that first came to mind.

[dragonladyk.livejournal.com]

It's the way they cut the scene and Howell's acting that added the sexual connotations: Foyet removed his shirt, showed Hotch his torso and purred "do you like my scars?" before straddling Hotch and positing about impotence. That combined with "the blade goes in so much easier if you relax," and yeah, there was more than "this isn't sexual, remember that next time" going on there. Whether it was thrusting into a wound (a surprisingly common sadistic fantasy) or just pressing his erection against Hotch, either way, there was definite sexual element to what he did. Even if Howell was just "faking gay" to freak Hotch out.

DragonLady

[http://users.livejournal.com/_touched/]

Agree'd. Whether they show goes there or not, this cannot be ignored or passed over or explained away by another theory or take.

[maclou.livejournal.com]

I honestly think he was cut there. It's what I thought at the time and that's what I still think now. I mean first Foyet talked about knowing a lot about the body and knowing exactly where he had to cut, then he talked about the impotence and then he said maybe this will change the way you profile (or something like that), at that point I got VERY worried D: THEN his hands went down there, Hotch made a noise and it was obvious to me he cut him somewhere at least. I really got the impression that Foyet meant maybe Hotch would change the way he thought of whether impotent people would use knives for sex if he were impotent himself. I never thought of rape and I'm really surprised that so many people seem to be leaning that way, it was pretty obvious to me what happened.... But I could be wrong!

[seimei.livejournal.com]

I don't think there was enough blood for him to have been cut there. I mean, we saw the pool of blood when Emily first walked in, and there was a lot of blood but not enough to account for his stab wounds to the torso and being cut there.

Or maybe I just can't bare the though of that happening to Hotch.

[a_blackpanther]

I think the writers are getting some trouble about the network about this. In the chat before the premiere someone asked Ed B. "is there something you wish you would have done on the show but someone completely disagreed with you?" and he said something like Yes there is and that he can't say what it is because they might yet convince the network to do it. I'll bet this is what he was talking about.

[yamair.livejournal.com]

Where is the chat?

[britmandelo.livejournal.com]

I think the angle of the stab was wrong for genital mutilation--it appeared more to be into his side (ie, soft flesh wound) and also, Foyet makes the comment that Hotch's scars will mirror his (another form of control). As I assume Foyet did not stab himself in the genitals, I don't think that's what happened.

I'm of the opinion that what happened was a rape whether it involved penetration or not. I think it's equally possible that Foyet was pressing himself against Hotch and achieved his climax that way--which is still degrading and objectifying for the victim and is in no way less serious then penetrative rape, especially when the stabbing is added into the equation--or quite literally raped him, in the legal sense. After all, we don't see all nine stabs or what happens after. His flashback cuts out before Foyet is finished, which leaves a huge blank spot. There's also the added trauma of Foyet bundling him up and taking him off to the hospital, conflating caregiving with sexual and physical assault.

This is network television. Showing a male rape is more or less impossible. I also think that the writers might be trying to get us to think about the implications of rape and the fact that it can be more than a penetrative act.

[iscaris.livejournal.com]

This is network television. Showing a male rape is more or less impossible.

This is probably the closest full scene with strong male rape implications that I've seen on any TV show. Taking it strictly out of context, this scene was well filmed and deftly handled -- it's chilling in its buildup (Foyet stripping his shirt) and portrays a non-consensual situation without even using the actual words or even much movement (no struggling from Hotch).

I also think that the writers might be trying to get us to think about the implications of rape and the fact that it can be more than a penetrative act.

The scene works well as meta exploration of psychological domination and even implied rape -- if actual sexual penetration is indeed what they are going for, I hope the writers give this proper mileage with the aftermath/PTSD, not drop it like a hot potato as if nothing happened.

Male rape involves complex psychological issues, especially when the victim is someone like Hotch, whose ability to control and lead is so integral to his character. It would certainly be brave for them to "go there" -- not just referring to the open interpretation of this Foyet/Hotch scene but an affirmative confirmation in a future ep -- but they will NEED to be brave enough to follow it up in a believable way. Saying Hotch was raped without any form of fallout would seriously trivialize rape and its severity/consequences.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_nextboldmove_/]

I wanted to answer both 'the writers want it to mean rape' and 'foyet meant that he can have sex' because I think it can go either way...

[jm-kaye.livejournal.com]

Same here. I'm going to say that *something* sexual happened, and leave it at that.

[scarimor.livejournal.com]

I voted Foyet likes stabbing more. I think Foyet was ridiculing the profiler art - telling Hotch that profilers are obsessed with viewing actions in sexual ways, and they're not as clever as they think they are.

[nebula99.livejournal.com]

Yes. I think he wanted Hotch to know that their profiles can be wrong and that it isn't the answer to solving everything. I think Foyet also wants to be thought of as "unprofilable"

[caelith.livejournal.com]

Purely for the entire intimacy of the scene and the way Foyet was focused on Hotch, I vote he was raped.

Also he put emphasis on the word "impotent", as if that was the particular part of the profile he wanted to prove erroneous; and there really is only one way to prove you're not impotent.

[knit.livejournal.com]

During that scene Foyet said "Maybe this will change how you profile." This makes me think that he was just implying rape. He was making Hotch feel violated and insecure, like a victim of rape. He wanted him to reconsider what he had previously always thought.

Now Hotch is going to second guess profiles of knife-killers.

Or so I believe.

[enfeebledchi.livejournal.com]

I definitely think he was trying to show that stabbing wasn't always a substitution for rape.

I think that's what they intended at least. But they probably left it ambiguous to really mess with us.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_touched/]

This. I agree with, leaving it open and ambiguous to mess with our heads, and spark discussion like this. However, I think, or rather I hope that they follow through on this and and actually tell us in some what or another, what Foyet actually did to Hotch or whether this happened.

[laminy.livejournal.com]

Oh, friggin' crikey, I don't know. I thought that it was rape, but there's a lot of other options here and now I'm trying to seriously consider all of them. Rape was my initial thought, though.

[liliananyappy.livejournal.com]

I think it was him implying that sex isn't always a substitute for rape.
But idk, this is really interesting.

[iscaris.livejournal.com]

LOL, thelana - you've really analyzed every possible angle :)

I admit that the idea of rape occurred to me (rather sharply and unpleasantly, considering my threshold for fictional non-con) because of the Foyet stripping his shirt/lying on top of Hotch sequence. The conversation definitely alluded to rape.

But I ultimately think that it was more a mindfuck than anything else, because Foyet is the kind of guy that loves psychological domination/humiliation/control far more than any physical release -- he could stop killing for ten years just to savor the sense of control he had over Shaugnessy. It's all about the mindgames and less about physical aggression alone (although he clearly enjoyed kicking the crap out of Hotch).

I think that if he did nick Hotch's "equipment" in any way there would be a far more violent reflex action of pain from Hotch than the passive "umph" we saw. And although Hotch did not tell Emily the truth, his behavior throughout the scenes did not have the raw/bruised/edgy feel of someone who had been raped.

So in the end I think it was just very uncomfortable innuendo that, unless everyone involved in writing and producing the script has NO sense of subtext, was entirely intentional for the squirm/squick effect.

I do hope that they don't run with the rape plot thread, because it really is too much to throw at Hotch on top of everything he's already been through, from being blown up in S4 to getting baited and stabbed by a psycho with a very unhealthy obsession with him. And judging from the patchy, poorly developed plot arc with Reid's drug addiction, if they DID go with Hotch being raped they're probably going to sprinkle a few half-assed attempts at PTSD and Hotch is "back to normal" again. Continuity is not CM's strong suit!

[dragonladyk.livejournal.com]

Continuity is not CM's strong suit!

*points to SGA and CSI* In the absolute sense, not as much so as a single-author novel. But comparitively? They're pretty damn on-target. The thing with writing for TV is that you do have to exercise care not to drive away huge chunks of your viewership, which means going easy on plotlines that fall outside the general premise of your show.

And I was so happy to see that drug-addiction plotline go away that I cannot possibly tell you. ^^

DragonLady

[miss-pam.livejournal.com]

i went with the first.
i am absolutely sure that the rape happened but i think it happened WITH the knife. (sick, i know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it got to that extend)

[annievh.livejournal.com]

i hv one question...

WHEN WILL WE SEE FICS BASED ON THIS EPISODE?!?!

lol

[a_blackpanther]

Just as soon as people have the time to write them. Over the weekend i guess?

*waits (im)patiently*

[gamefreak-zero.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Interesting. I guess this is why Hotch totally lied about the stabbing when they asked what happened, and responded that he passed out after the first stab. And we all know that he was conscious for several stabs and not just one.

[eeagle.livejournal.com]

the one thought that crossed my mind when that whole thing happened (watching it a second time of course..) Dang i wonder how many takes they had to do of that.. I bet TG and CH.. really grew closer to each other then they wanted to in that scene..

and fan fiction.. link us up people.. ill read it! :-)

[lady--vaako.livejournal.com]

Maybe this will change the way you profile.

That, to me, says a lot. I don't think it had anything to do with rape or emasculation. For the longest time, Foyet kept the BAU baffled because they couldn't properly analyze the victimology pertaining to his crimes. I think Foyet simply wanted to show Hotch that he cannot be put in a box and be assigned a specific profile just like the other killers.

[chandlerina.livejournal.com]

gah, that scene freaked me out! when he started taking off his shirt, i was all *hide behind a pillow*. he's scary, man. my take on it was that foyet wanted to show hotch that he couldn't be profiled, because the stabbing wasn't sexual. but now i don't know! the fact that hotch told emily that he couldn't remember what had happened after the first stab, did he lie because it was rape? or did he lie because of the things foyet told him? or didn't he lie at all? maybe he actually couldn't remember, but i took those flashbacks as his own memories. i don't know.

[hansah.livejournal.com]

Very intersting poll!!! I love all the possibilities. I hesitated a lot between :

- The writers wanted to suggest emasculation but have no intention of actually following through (aka they want to create an allusion but it's not what happened)

and :

- Foyet meant that he can have sex, but he actually likes stabbing more and Hotch also understood it that way via implication/conversation alone that stabbing has it's own appeal, on its own merits and Hotch will consider that during his next profiles

I voted first one...

But all the suggestions about the networks restrains are also very tempting...

[megantracey.livejournal.com]

I voted that Foyet raped Hotch or at the very least based on what we have seen thus far, was intending to. If this is a network clearance issue, I have a real problem with the inequity of it. Network TV has no problem showing a woman being attacked.

[kitsjay.livejournal.com]

Ah, the way I took it was that if profilers think that stabbing is a substitute for rape, then Foyet was (conceptually) raping Hotch by stabbing him--so either Hotch has to stop profiling like that ("will you still think that after this" line) or he himself is a rape victim; with Hotch being so strong and self-reliant, I think that thinking of himself as a victim of anything, much less rape, would be devastating.

[greenapple (from livejournal.com)]

oops. didn't mean to submit my answer. how incredibly stupid of me!

i was going to back out, because there's no multiple choice, and then hit submit instead of read comments. :\ dur.

all i know is: it was disturbingly hot. and I may have watched those scenes a few times over, biting my knuckles and making happy sounds.