That thing we are discussing about 5x01

[thelana.livejournal.com]

The dialog from the scene:
F: Do you want to see my scars? What do you think? Do you like them? Yours are gonna look just the same
H: My team
F: Your team, your team didn't catch me untill I wanted them to. You're not in charge so don't be foolish. Now try to relax. Your body will go numb (knife goes in) and it goes in so much easier if you relax. The hard part is not passing out from the pain. (Foyet pulls the knife our slowly) Now I understand that profilers think that stabbing is a substitution for the act of sex, that if somebody is impotent, they'll use a knife instead. Is that what you think agent Hotchner? Maybe this will change the way you profile. (knife goes in)

So what do you think did the scene mean?

[Poll #1462291]

Comments

[iscaris.livejournal.com]

LOL, thelana - you've really analyzed every possible angle :)

I admit that the idea of rape occurred to me (rather sharply and unpleasantly, considering my threshold for fictional non-con) because of the Foyet stripping his shirt/lying on top of Hotch sequence. The conversation definitely alluded to rape.

But I ultimately think that it was more a mindfuck than anything else, because Foyet is the kind of guy that loves psychological domination/humiliation/control far more than any physical release -- he could stop killing for ten years just to savor the sense of control he had over Shaugnessy. It's all about the mindgames and less about physical aggression alone (although he clearly enjoyed kicking the crap out of Hotch).

I think that if he did nick Hotch's "equipment" in any way there would be a far more violent reflex action of pain from Hotch than the passive "umph" we saw. And although Hotch did not tell Emily the truth, his behavior throughout the scenes did not have the raw/bruised/edgy feel of someone who had been raped.

So in the end I think it was just very uncomfortable innuendo that, unless everyone involved in writing and producing the script has NO sense of subtext, was entirely intentional for the squirm/squick effect.

I do hope that they don't run with the rape plot thread, because it really is too much to throw at Hotch on top of everything he's already been through, from being blown up in S4 to getting baited and stabbed by a psycho with a very unhealthy obsession with him. And judging from the patchy, poorly developed plot arc with Reid's drug addiction, if they DID go with Hotch being raped they're probably going to sprinkle a few half-assed attempts at PTSD and Hotch is "back to normal" again. Continuity is not CM's strong suit!

[dragonladyk.livejournal.com]

Continuity is not CM's strong suit!

*points to SGA and CSI* In the absolute sense, not as much so as a single-author novel. But comparitively? They're pretty damn on-target. The thing with writing for TV is that you do have to exercise care not to drive away huge chunks of your viewership, which means going easy on plotlines that fall outside the general premise of your show.

And I was so happy to see that drug-addiction plotline go away that I cannot possibly tell you. ^^

DragonLady

[iscaris.livejournal.com]

The thing with writing for TV is that you do have to exercise care not to drive away huge chunks of your viewership, which means going easy on plotlines that fall outside the general premise of your show.

I understand that a procedural's "crime of the week" setup involves sacrificing major character subplots, and that's why I feel a sense of trepidation if they decide to pick up the male rape storyline for Hotch.

They screwed up Reid's drug addiction and PTSD storyline; more specific to Hotch, they dropped the bombshell in "Natural Born Killers" way back in Season 1 that Hotch had an abusive childhood, and then... not just nothing, but confusing contradictions that have spawned so many theories but no proper answers.

CSI Miami had a one-off episode about a male victim who was raped, but it is completely different to have a main character experience rape and then not deal squarely with the consequences, uncomfortable and possibly "taboo" as that may be for fear of audience alienation. So if CM is thinking about playing it straight to preserve the vast majority of their squickable (non-fannish) viewers, then I'd rather they not open a controversial issue and then ignore it or make it magically go away. It simply does not do justice to something as grave and serious as rape.

[dragonladyk.livejournal.com]

I understand that a procedural's "crime of the week" setup involves sacrificing major character subplots [...] So if CM is thinking about playing it straight to preserve the vast majority of their squickable (non-fannish) viewers, then I'd rather they not open a controversial issue and then ignore it or make it magically go away.

It's not the "crime of the week" setup that's the problem. It's the bottom line that's the issue.

A procedural (which focuses on the work) and a drama (which focuses on the character's personal lives) attract very different audiences. Sometimes shows can jump demographics and stay popular. Often, though, when a show tries to jump demographics it finds that the audience it's aiming for won't try it and the audience it had now doesn't want it, and the show bombs out. When shows bomb networks lose money and network execs know that. They also know that if a show gets too controversial or edgy, companies won't want their commercials on during the show for fear that the Moral Guardians will boycott them or that people will associate their product with controversy and edge. That lowers ad impressions for the show and costs the network money. Networks care about making money more than anything.

All of which I'm certain you know, of course.

That being said, I think the CM PTBs deserves a break because no matter how thoughtful and realistic they wish to be, they have to answer to execs who see only the bottom line -- and we the audience have no way of knowing how much of what we see is the writers or the network. All it takes is one exec to say "no one would ever take the commander seriously if you go on and on about his abused childhood" (no matter how wrong that may be) and there goes that plotline. In the case of male rape, touch-and-go implication literally may be the best handling of the situation that is within the writing staff's power.

Foyet's scene is getting people thinking and talking about male rape which, IMO, is at least a step in the right direction.

DragonLady

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I think the thing about procedurals is that they are designed so people can start watching at any stand alone episode and still enjoy it even if they don't know the backgrounds of any of the characters. They are also designed to work well in reruns, again, being written in a way that people can jump in at any time. Because of this, characters have to be pretty recognizable, but also pretty stagnant.

I do think that CM is still better than most so far. For example Bones gives a much larger portion to the personal lives of the characters but the fans also complain about there being constant character continuity problems, particularly in the form of characters being "reset", either because they need them to be quirky and odd again even though technically, in canon, the character should have moved beyond that already or because a major event that should have affected the characters longterm is quickly forgotten. So more focus on the personal apparently is no insurance against poor character continuity it seems.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

LOL, [info]thelana - you've really analyzed every possible angle :)

Heh, I try ;)

I really wish I knew my own reaction to the scene, but unfortunately I spoiled myself on the discussion before I watched it. I did think that the whole thing came across as very sexualized even back when the first promos of Foyet shirtless came out.

I tend to lean towards "the writers want it to seem sexulized, but have no intention of following up" and the "Foyet wants to show him he loves stabbing all on its own" options. The option that maybe he was pressing up on Hotch while stabbing Hotch for example seems really sensible to me.

I also agree that in a way the details don't matter that much because Hotch was majorly violated either way, his home, his body, his sense of security, etc. And yes, I really want to know what comes next and whether it will change how Hotch is in the field.

I also think that one factor in me leaning towards "no" is that in a way I feel it might be too redundant to Morgan's story. But I have heard some good arguments from the other side too (and I do think that CM essentially saying "this is a rough job, in this universe, really crappy stuff like this totally happens and they get over it" would be an interesting thing to do, especially since they tend to drop this on the male characters (Morgan, Reid and Hotch stories) rather than the female ones (Emily got "taking a beating" and Elle got "being tempted to take law into her own hands and go rogue"). Emasculation would be more creative to me, more unusual, but I can't help but feel like the evidence on it is not enough so far to make me think that's what happened. Poor continuity in procedurals aside, I still hope have the hope that we'll hear something more on this either way.

Either way, it's definitely interesting to see what people think :)

[iscaris.livejournal.com]

Apart from it being AWFUL and OMG NOOO! --- emasculation seems so remote that I'd say it's impossible. I think that the doctors would have noted that, or at least Hotch would be in far greater pain and more traumatized than how we saw him.

I agree about the violation and I do think that as it was done, it was very well done to convey the multiple layers of violation, humiliation, manipulation and utter sense of helplessness from Hotch's POV. I would not be opposed to seeing the rape storyline developed in a well-done manner in fanfic, but my greatest reservation about them taking it to canon is that they don't go all the way and do it properly. That would be worse than just leaving it ambiguous (as it stands).

[iscaris.livejournal.com]

Also -- good point about how the male characters seem to be getting the roughest deal on this show. I don't think that (if Hotch were indeed sexually assaulted) that would be redundant to Morgan's story because the context is entirely different. Morgan was abused when he was a kid by a figure of authority, and maybe that made him want to go into law enforcement to catch bad guys (?). But Hotch suffered the abuse on the job, as an adult. I think the dynamics are entirely different and while there are similarities (such as hiding what happened) it won't be too much alike to feel like a redux.

I do believe it would easier for the writers to do a decent job at dealing with PTSD for non-physical/psychological rape than it would be for actual sexual assault, especially given the constraints of procedurals and their poor track record of continuity.

After some mulling I do have a couple of other theories about what happened -- maybe a sign that I should get back into writing CM fic, which has always been a great way of filling in the canon blanks :)

[thelana.livejournal.com]

:) :) :) :)

I have to say, scouting through some CM fic, I realized I'm so not used to again be in a fandom where there are actually people who write longer fic! Or a lot of long Gen fic!