That thing we are discussing about 5x01

[thelana.livejournal.com]

The dialog from the scene:
F: Do you want to see my scars? What do you think? Do you like them? Yours are gonna look just the same
H: My team
F: Your team, your team didn't catch me untill I wanted them to. You're not in charge so don't be foolish. Now try to relax. Your body will go numb (knife goes in) and it goes in so much easier if you relax. The hard part is not passing out from the pain. (Foyet pulls the knife our slowly) Now I understand that profilers think that stabbing is a substitution for the act of sex, that if somebody is impotent, they'll use a knife instead. Is that what you think agent Hotchner? Maybe this will change the way you profile. (knife goes in)

So what do you think did the scene mean?

[Poll #1462291]

Comments

[britmandelo.livejournal.com]

I think the angle of the stab was wrong for genital mutilation--it appeared more to be into his side (ie, soft flesh wound) and also, Foyet makes the comment that Hotch's scars will mirror his (another form of control). As I assume Foyet did not stab himself in the genitals, I don't think that's what happened.

I'm of the opinion that what happened was a rape whether it involved penetration or not. I think it's equally possible that Foyet was pressing himself against Hotch and achieved his climax that way--which is still degrading and objectifying for the victim and is in no way less serious then penetrative rape, especially when the stabbing is added into the equation--or quite literally raped him, in the legal sense. After all, we don't see all nine stabs or what happens after. His flashback cuts out before Foyet is finished, which leaves a huge blank spot. There's also the added trauma of Foyet bundling him up and taking him off to the hospital, conflating caregiving with sexual and physical assault.

This is network television. Showing a male rape is more or less impossible. I also think that the writers might be trying to get us to think about the implications of rape and the fact that it can be more than a penetrative act.

[iscaris.livejournal.com]

This is network television. Showing a male rape is more or less impossible.

This is probably the closest full scene with strong male rape implications that I've seen on any TV show. Taking it strictly out of context, this scene was well filmed and deftly handled -- it's chilling in its buildup (Foyet stripping his shirt) and portrays a non-consensual situation without even using the actual words or even much movement (no struggling from Hotch).

I also think that the writers might be trying to get us to think about the implications of rape and the fact that it can be more than a penetrative act.

The scene works well as meta exploration of psychological domination and even implied rape -- if actual sexual penetration is indeed what they are going for, I hope the writers give this proper mileage with the aftermath/PTSD, not drop it like a hot potato as if nothing happened.

Male rape involves complex psychological issues, especially when the victim is someone like Hotch, whose ability to control and lead is so integral to his character. It would certainly be brave for them to "go there" -- not just referring to the open interpretation of this Foyet/Hotch scene but an affirmative confirmation in a future ep -- but they will NEED to be brave enough to follow it up in a believable way. Saying Hotch was raped without any form of fallout would seriously trivialize rape and its severity/consequences.

[asatomuraki.livejournal.com]

I'm with you guys. I think they were making it look and feel a LOT like rape scene (or the beginnings of one). If Foyet was trying to refute the profile implying he was impotent (and I think that much is obvious) then all that "he just really likes stabbing as a metaphor" and "he was telling Hotch he was capable of having sex and expected Hotch to take his stabby word for it" just doesn't follow, as it would not alter the profile at all.

But, as someone else said, there are different definitions of rape or sexual violence. I have no doubts that Foyet was behaving sexually with Hotch, but that doesn't mean he had to take Hotch's clothes off to demean him sexually and prove that he (Foyet) could 'perform.'

It's an icky, squishy place that is broader and deeper than most definitions of what is and isn't rape. I have my doubts as to whether they'll 'go there' but I hope they do, because it could actually bring some awareness about male rape.

[iscaris.livejournal.com]

I have my doubts as to whether they'll 'go there' but I hope they do, because it could actually bring some awareness about male rape.

While a part of me feels that Hotch has been through enough damage and a confirmed sexual assault could be the breaking point, I would certainly be interested in seeing where they go with the rape of a main cast character. It is ripe for both something groundbreaking and powerful and something sloppy and poorly handled.

And I'm most concerned about how they will handle it if they do go there. Perhaps it is the setup of a crime procedural, but CM has not been particularly stellar at handling personal character issues/trauma/PTSD -- Reid's drug habit and, more specific to Hotch, the strong implication in "Natural Born Killers" way back in Season 1 that Hotch had an abusive childhood, and then... nothing.

[angstbunny.livejournal.com]

I'm most concerned about how they will handle it if they do go there

Same here. I really really want them to handle this well. I'm torn. Because I feel like CM has been outstanding in a lot of ways, with the way they go against expectations, the stereotypes, but at the same time, it has been SO crappy with its continuity. >.<

But the deconstruction of Aaron Hotchner has been a steady thread through the show since day one. So I don't want to believe that they don't have some sort of payoff to all this build-up and dread.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_touched/]

It would certainly be brave for them to "go there" -- not just referring to the open interpretation of this Foyet/Hotch scene but an affirmative confirmation in a future ep -- but they will NEED to be brave enough to follow it up in a believable way. Saying Hotch was raped without any form of fallout would seriously trivialize rape and its severity/consequences.

Agreed.

[angstbunny.livejournal.com]

Yes! This exactly. This is what I've been thinking. Legal aspect aside, the whole scene was framed like a rape. It calls to question, emotionally speaking, whether genital contact is necessary for an act to be called a rape. Certainly Hotch has been violated. The word "rape" seems to be tripping a lot of people up. I think the point here is that it IS rape, even if Hotch remained fully clothed during it all. So many people (not necessarily here in this comm, I mean in general) have a rigid definition of rape: men can't possibly be raped, men can't be raped by women, women can't rape other women, etc, etc. I think the show is making one question one's definitions and preconceived notions, like it always does.

[asatomuraki.livejournal.com]

I hope you're right, because even if he wasn't raped in a narrow definition f the term, Foyet was definitely getting off on hurting him, showing off his body (and even making Hotch's wounds mirror his) while hurting him.

[angstbunny.livejournal.com]

I'm a huge TV cynic, but I have faith in CM, which terrifies me. I believe CM will deliver, because I feel like they're fairly self-aware, that they know they're knocking on the doors of a LOT of tricky issues. What happened to Hotch here, this is HUGE. CM may have its fail moments, but I can't begin to imagine they'd mess this up.

They'd better not anyway.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_touched/]

So many people (not necessarily here in this comm, I mean in general) have a rigid definition of rape: men can't possibly be raped, men can't be raped by women, women can't rape other women, etc, etc. I think the show is making one question one's definitions and preconceived notions, like it always does.

Yes! This, because I think it's time that people's defintions and preconceptions about rape are shook up. I have never believed that rape was just purely physical and I've always believed that it can and will happen to anyone at any particular time in their life, whether they be male, female, or if the same sex rapes another person of the same sex. So, thank you for pointing that out.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_touched/]

Showing a male rape is more or less impossible. I also think that the writers might be trying to get us to think about the implications of rape and the fact that it can be more than a penetrative act.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if done right, I think they could really acomplish this actually happening to him, after all this is an intelligent show and they've been certainly daring in other area's. Why not this one, as well? I mean, I realize that the networks usually run in the oppossite direction when it comes to this and usually when we deal with rape, it's most always a woman. I think it's about time to break that pattern and move in the direction of daring to make the bolder move.

The implication for this is certainly there and you cannot deny that. I do happen to agree with you, in that the writer's may be trying to get us to think about the implications of it. The whole idea of "rape" in general, is what I find to be tripping people up a bit. It's always been my opinion, that a person can definitely be raped in more than one way, and not just in a physical sense. So, whatever they're doing, I'm quite sure we're going to get one of the most bold and daring stories told on primetime network. This show has already proven just how badass it can really be.