Interdepartmental fraternization?

[lazaria91.livejournal.com]

 So it's generally acknowledged in Criminal Minds fandom that dating co-workers is a bit of a no-no. Most of us ignore it but we still use it as plot points or whatever.

It occured to me like five minutes ago that Reid asked JJ out in the first season at Gideon's encouragment. Is he supposed to do that? And Morgan knew about it in the next episode. If interdepartmental fraternization is really not supposed to happen, why were they so casual about it? Thoughts?

Comments

[beatriceeagle.livejournal.com]

I don't know about the real FBI, but at the time, I know that Reid specifically said that dating another agent wasn't against the rules (in the beginning of 1x05 "Broken Mirror").

[lazaria91.livejournal.com]

Did he? I don't remember that.

[beatriceeagle.livejournal.com]

I specifically remember that he said that dating agents wasn't against the rules, because Morgan replied that dating women with guns was against his rules.

[agirlnamedluna.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I wondered about that as well just a few days ago, since Garcia made such a big deal out of the fraternization rules yet Gideon encouraged Reid to (try to) date JJ and they would work together all the time while Garcia & Lynch don't even (as far as we know). Doesn't make much sense.
Plus there's that deleted scene where Reid is trying to see whether Morgan wants to date Prentiss or not.

I think the no-no thing stems from the big deal it seemed to be with Garcia and Lynch while the other two occurrences are overlooked.

[diemme.livejournal.com]

It's one of the deleted scenes on the second season DVDs.

It was cut from the end of "Fear and Loathing" and replaced with the scene of Reid telling Morgan about knowing what the dead girls in leaves were thinking before they died. "Fear and Loathing" was shot before "Revelations" and then the writers realised that Reid probably wasn't up for flirting discussions after the Hankel business.

[agirlnamedluna.livejournal.com]

yeah what diemme said ;) I was asleep lol.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Lol, they have a moratorium on intra-team profiling, but not dating? 'k, then!

Still, it's cool that they're so casual about it, makes fanfics and shipping more plausible!

And d'aww! I do not remember him asking her out, but that's cute. I never really shipped them, but they were kind of the default couple in my head, it seemed natural.

[thecowboycliche.livejournal.com]

Um, it's adorable.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

OH, SQUEE! Thanks for the vid! ♥ Oh, writers, the anvils! *sighs*

Like I said, I don't ship them, but it was kind of the 'endgame' ship in my head, I just thought they were the obvious couple (duh, look at that scene!) and I hate hate HATE that Will had to return and be the babydaddy. I don't blame AJ for being pregnant but I did not agree with the the writers incorporating it into the script and making a hash of the whole thing.

Because Spence/JJ is so cute, damn it!

[thecowboycliche.livejournal.com]

Could have been Spencer's baby, writers. That's all I'm saying. *whistles*

[goddessdster.livejournal.com]

I believe it's more "Oh, you know what would make this whole Garcia/Kevin thing funny? Have Rossi walk in on them! And then we'll get her all worried about fraternization!" And a bunch of other writers nodded and completely ignored the first season altogether.

Just like they do other times when shit gets wonked.

[sodoesrachael.livejournal.com]

That's how I see it in my head, for every single episode ever.

[thecowboycliche.livejournal.com]

We should write this damn show. We all have good ideas and we actually remember continuity and shit that went down in S1.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

It ought to be mandatory that they have at least one fan consultant- keep them honest, maintain continuity, not just throw everything out when it's inconvenient. *eyeroll*

[agirlnamedluna.livejournal.com]

I so totally agree with you! Plus they are like violating so many screenwriting rules it's not even funny anymore, all for the sake of "creativity" or what?

The moment where Emily said in the latest episode "I never thought of serial killers as fathers" (or something like that) made me want to claw my eyes and ears out ... they chased an unsub using his son as lure and made a big deal out of it! And the solitary man who was a *gasp* father looking for a mother for his child ... but, writers, great way to let the new girl express herself about her *sobs* youth.

[goddessdster.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, I actually prefer some of the changes. They feel more in-character, but I don't like it when canon contradicts itself. Why do we fanfic writers put so much effort into canon when the writers of the damn show can't be bothered?

[thecowboycliche.livejournal.com]

We like it a lot more than they do? They see it as a job, we see it as a hobby?

Sometimes, you just want to wash your own hair.

[goddessdster.livejournal.com]

That was one of my favorite JJ lines.

[fun-french-fri.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking Gideon was pretty sure it would go nowhere.

[lazaria91.livejournal.com]

If he did, that's a dick move.

[dragonladyk.livejournal.com]

See icon.

DragonLady

[lazaria91.livejournal.com]

I approve of this icon.

[diemme.livejournal.com]

I always thought he was trying to build Reid's confidence a bit - ask out the kind, sympathetic woman who won't hurt him or pressure him and see that a date isn't an awful experience. But JJ/Reid was never my ship, she always seemed more like his big sister to me.

[fun-french-fri.livejournal.com]

That's it, yes.

[grapefruits.livejournal.com]

I agree, this is pretty much what I always thought.

[goddessdster.livejournal.com]

I have a hard time believing Strauss wouldn't take issue with members of the team, um, fraternizing.

[thecowboycliche.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I don't think it had anything to do with (I'll use RP terms for lack of anything better) in character decisions, but rather out of character decisions by the writers who decided not to introduce romances between the agents into the show.

I think it was a good idea for the most part and could be justified in character too I think.

But yeah, I think they didn't want this to become Grey's Anatomy basically. (No offense to any Grey's fans, used to watch that show myself). :)

[goddessdster.livejournal.com]

But yeah, I think they didn't want this to become Grey's Anatomy basically.

Or as MGG referred to it: Quantico 90210

[thecowboycliche.livejournal.com]

LOOOOOOL I love him.

[agirlnamedluna.livejournal.com]

He knows what's up <3

[just-chiara.livejournal.com]

But yeah, I think they didn't want this to become Grey's Anatomy basically
Ahah, I've been rewatching Grey's lately and I still can't keep track of who slept with whom. I'm pretty sure everybody slept with everybody at some point. Or lived at Meredith's house.

That said, if they do something like that to Criminal Minds, I'm goinna have to go all unsub on the writers.

[gartan18.livejournal.com]

I know it's forbidden on the Mentalist, but I think it has more to do with the characters on that show actually wanting to date. I'm sure it hasn't really been mentioned on CM because the people in the BAU don't look at each other in that way and it's not an issue (and as someone above said the writers basically ignore season 1).

That said, I'm still waiting for Reid/Prentiss...In my dreams.

[thecowboycliche.livejournal.com]

That said, I'm still waiting for Reid/Prentiss...In my dreams.

It's what fanfic and RPs are made of, love!

[gartan18.livejournal.com]

Oh I know ;) Nothing would beat seeing it really happen though!

[thecowboycliche.livejournal.com]

I agree. They're my ship so I'd definitely be happy about that, so long as they went about it in a plausible way and not "hey they're together now!".

[sodoesrachael.livejournal.com]

Once I poured over an official FBI "rules" document and found no mention of anything pertaining to fraternization at all, let alone it being "forbidden." The only thing that might have been a reference is that 'agents in charge' are not allowed to give gifts to agents they are in charge of. ;P So no presents from Hotch for Christmas. :( lolz.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Whaaaat? But- but- Hotch deserves

Oh, I just read that and realized Hotch couldn't GIVE presents. That's okay, then. :P

I love that you actually read an official FBI thing to check for what they had to say on fraternization, so cool of you!

[goddessdster.livejournal.com]

I'm actually surprised there aren't any rules against it. If for no other reason than to protect the Bureau from Sexual Harassment suits.

[goddessdster.livejournal.com]

Also, quite impressed you read the thing at all. Now I know who to turn to when I need to know if something I want a character to do is against the rules or not! :D

[doctaj10.livejournal.com]

actually not only is there no rule against it, I know several FBI agents that are married and working at Quantico....(granted not the same department, and it was always known by their superiors)

I think the main rule is that everything has to be kept above board, and special treatment of any kind is forbidden.

[ayajedi.livejournal.com]

In my head it is NOT against the rules because I want Garcia and Morgan to end up happily every after
*yeah yeah I know*

[agirlnamedluna.livejournal.com]

This ;)

[dragonladyk.livejournal.com]

They're in completely different divisions: he's an agent, she's civilian support staff. As long as they are the same pay grade and Hotch is okay with it, they're fine.

DragonLady

[scotchsour.livejournal.com]

As a slasher, you guys aren't givng same sex couples the same rules? Because, I assume they would have to keep their mouths shut, even from their supervisor. Unless it's Hotch :). Otherwise, the safest thing for my Morgan and Reid is to work in dfferent BAU's.

[innerslytherin]

From what I understand, the rule at the real FBI is that FBI agents can't date FBI Academy students. I am by no means an expert, but this is what I've been told by people who want to be FBI and have studied it more than I have.

[dragonladyk.livejournal.com]

Granted, most of my familiarity with government frat regs are from the military, but from what I understand the basic principles are the same for all federal employees who carry guns (CIA, Navy, Army, Marines, Air Force, FBI, Homeland Security).

1) Don't date/have sex with subordinates who directly report to you. Ever.

2) Don't date above or below your own pay grade. There are two components to determine privileges in federal employment: your title, such as Agent or Technical Analyst, which is determined by what you do and who reports to you (this is called a billet in the military); and your pay grade, which is determined by a combination of seniority and productivity (this is called a rank in the military). Since an E7 can make life hell for an E5 even if the E7 isn't in the E5's "department," E7s are to keep it in their pants with everyone who isn't an E7.

3) If you fulfill rules 1 and 2, don't date in secret. Make sure all superiors are informed and all necessary documentation has been completed, though some branches/sections do forbid dating within the same department/division.

4) If you are in the civilian branches (CIA, FBI, Homeland Security) and your partner is the same sex as you, disregard rule 3 and keep your trap shut because no one in power wants to hear it. If you are in the military branches especially keep your mouth shut because you will be fired (even if that firing has to wait until the men in power find a way to get DADT un-suspended).

5) There are rules, and there is what people do. A supervisor is responsible for administering the regulations for his own jurisdiction. So if your supervisor or both supervisors of both OPs think the rule is stupid and/or are okay with you doing it (such as in the case of a sexual relationship that predates whichever promotion/hiring is causing the problem) and no one higher than them catches wind of it, there's no problem.

In the particular case of JJ and Reid, they are the same rank and they could possibly have been in the same pay grade depending upon how long each had been in the FBI. In that case since Gideon and Hotch wouldn't have had a problem with it, they would have been fine. With Garcia and Kevin, they could have different pay grades and their supervisor could be a lot stricter about inter-departmental fraternization than Hotch (which would make Rossi running his mouth a problem). While Garcia (and, at times, Kevin) may be attached to the BAU, they are not agents. They are civilian support staff: totally different department. Hotch can make a formal recommendation to give Garcia a raise, for example, but he can't actually give her a raise. Or fire her.

And even if the regs did allow two agents to date, there are still ethical concerns that would impact any agent's decision both before, during, and after a liason.

For example, to use my favorite ship, let's use Hotch and Prentiss. Not only is he her supervisor (adding a potential power imbalance), but the point was very strongly made that the BAU is a coveted job and Prentiss wasn't even in the top of the transfer-in list -- indeed, this was the very crux of Strauss's blackmail. Strauss's blackmail isn't established fact outside the team (though there may be rumors), or else Strauss would have been fired. If it were to get around that Hotch and Prentiss were sleeping together, the assumption would be that sleeping with Hotch was how Prentiss got in in the first place, and Prentiss's professional reputation would suffer. Hell, the rumor probably exists already even if only among those who Prentiss jumped in over the top of. Not only would Prentiss the Ambassador's daughter know that, but so would Hotch, and those concerns would factor heavily into their relationship. Or even whether to begin one in the first place. To write otherwise is illogical (which is why I don't read most of the H/P fic out there).

In the case of any homosexual relationships, the world is not the safest of places for homosexuals. Walking around the town holding hands? Wouldn't happen outside of very specific areas. And even then those areas would have to be such where there was no chance they would be recognized.

[kandy-barr.livejournal.com]

I think that in this case, Reid was the "baby" of the group and he needed to get out and experience a world that wasnt printed in 12 pt font on a piece of paper. It was a great opportunity for personal growth.