The Round Table Room

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

So I've been thinking about the Arthurian riffs in Criminal Minds, and as an Arthuriana buff as well as a CM fan, it seemed natural to try to figure out what the character correspondences are. Of course they're not exact, but--

We've been told outright that Reid = Parsifal, which I think works quite well. Especially given the current (spoiler) plotline. I dunno how much you guys know about the Arthurian legend cycles, but part of Parsifal's story is that he's repeatedly tempted to evil, but unlike Lancelot never falls. (At one point, by women who threaten to kill themselves if he will not sleep with them. (The women turn out to be demons.))

But Parsifal does eventually attain the grail, and is with Galahad translated into heaven.

I like JJ for Gwenevere, because of her name as much as anything, and because she's sort of the directing intelligence of the group. Although she could be Galahad as well--pure, and a little unworldly.

Garcia, of course, is Elaine of Shallott, who watches in her magic mirror and is eventually broken by what she sees there:

She left the web, she left the loom,
She made three paces through the room,
She saw the water-lily bloom,
She saw the helmet and the plume,
She look'd down to Camelot.
Out flew the web and floated wide;
The mirror crack'd from side to side;
"The curse is come upon me," cried
The Lady of Shalott.


I like Hotch for Gawain, the noblest of Arthur's knights, pure in deed and strong of arm. Or possibly an older version of Sir Kay, who--before he became the buffoon of modern legend--was Arthur's strongest knight and the master of his horse. Also, Kay is the castelan, which is to say the manager of the household. Morgan, with his women and his physical beauty, could be Lancelot, certainly--or Gideon could be Lancelot, the fallen knight, struggling to redeem himself and in the end, doomed by the same things that make him brilliant.

On the other hand, Elle makes a pretty good Lancelot too, or possibly a Mordred, betrayer of the kingdom.

And of course, that makes Prentiss Gareth Beaumains, who sneaks into the court as a servant and turns out to be of noble blood. And who has an antagonistic relationship with Kay....

*g*

What do you guys think?

Comments

[asha-dreamweave.livejournal.com]

Sorry, but shouldn't that be 'Percival'?

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

Parsifal, Perceval, and Percival are all the same guy. Depends on where you get your legendry from. *g*

[txanne.livejournal.com]

Don't forget Perlesvaus!

[nebula99.livejournal.com]

We've been told outright that Reid = Parsifal, which I think works quite well. Especially given the current (spoiler) plotline. I dunno how much you guys know about the Arthurian legend cycles, but part of Parsifal's story is that he's repeatedly tempted to evil, but unlike Lancelot never falls. (At one point, by women who threaten to kill themselves if he will not sleep with them. (The women turn out to be demons.))

sorry, but I just had a vision of crazy fangirls there!

I quite like Hotch as Gawain. Is anybody Arthur?

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

I don't think there can be an Arthur, because neither Hotch nor Gideon is completely in charge. They're of equivalent rank, after all, and they cover each other's weaknesses.

Also, Gawain and Lancelot were best friends. Until, ah, Lancelot killed a bunch of people.

[truepenny.livejournal.com]

Arthur, like the Grail, is perpetually just out of reach. Like Gloriana in The Faerie Queene (in which Arthur becomes a questing knight). The unobtainable/absent center.

I like Hotch for Gawain also because, as we learn in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Gawain is renowned for his courtesy.

[almond-tiger.livejournal.com]

I think you're awesome. :) I've been curious about the rest of the characters even since I saw that special on the DVD. I think it's wonderful that they're using the legends to flesh out the characters.

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

*g* Thank you!

They are sly dogs, these writers. I love them.

[chitown-gal.livejournal.com]

I think in the DVD extras that Bernero said right out that Gideon is Lancelot, the fallen knight. Not sure I agree with it - I think a case could be made for Gideon as Merlin.

Elle as Mordred works for me, but I really need to get myself current with Arthuriana. It's been years since I did any serious reading in that area.

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

Gideon as Merlin is kind of shinee. *g* He certainly makes the right kind of mistakes.

...Of course, they're *all* illusionists and conjurers. Of one sort or another. Though it's most patent in Gideon and Reid... and Hotch, who gets an awful lot of the green screen time.

Of course, our first contact with Elle establishes her as a trickster.

[sherina.livejournal.com]

You are awesome. My geeky inner fangirl combined with my medieval fangirl just exploded. :P

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

I had FUN.

[medicwarricklvr.livejournal.com]

So, who is Morgan?

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

if you don't like Lancelot, you tell me! *g*

[medicwarricklvr.livejournal.com]

Oh did you say Lancelot???

I missed that line the first time! SORRY! :) I see it now!!!

I'm ashamed to admit that I am not familiar enough with the Arthurian legend stuff to even guess, but I sure have enjoyed reading the thoughts! It's an interesting thought process!

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

;-)

[katallen.livejournal.com]

Can I vote for Garcia as Merlin? She not only casts powerful spells of divination but has written a few herself :)

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

ooooooooooo. YOU ARE SMART.

[polgarawolf.livejournal.com]

I think Hotch probably only really works as a Gawain type character if you're speaking of the older, Gwalchmei version of Gawain, or the Gawain who's not based in any way on the Vulgate Cycle. Chrétien de Troyes' Gawain would (mostly) work as a model for Hotch, though personally I think the Gawain of The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle would work even better (and Hotch's wife works surprisingly well as the Loathly Lady). Any later in Arthuriana, though, or based off the VC, and Gawain's flawed in the wrong way to work as a model for Hotch and in fact better fits Morgan's profile (lady's man, somewhat vain, usually has the best of intentions but can't quite let go of the material enough to follow through on them). I'm tempted to pitch Gawain over, though, in favor of Bedivere or Cei, since Hotch often is in a position where he has to sort of take care of the others and generally seems to be in charge of seeing to the details of the work though isn't always portrayed as the leader of the group (Gideon often taking this role).

Speaking of Gideon . . . I know he's been referred to as the Lancelot character, but personally, as an older, more experienced profiler who teaches the others and can be seen to be molding people like Reid, I'm tempted to place him in a Merlin role, rather than Lancelot. Though I think he'd also work as Leodegrance (keeper of the round table) or even better as Pellinore (given his relationship with the other "knights" of the show), especially since the show itself seems to be leaning more in the direction of a specific branch of Arthurian tradition.

If Reid is Peredur/Parsifal/Percival, then by all rights JJ should be either Chrétien de Troyes' Blanchefleur or else Dindrane, the Grail heroine.

I like Elle for Morgan le Fay. She seems to embody part of both aspects of Morgan's character (healer/priestess of the Apple Isle and dangerous tester of boundaries who might or might not be working towards the downfall of Arthur's realm), oddly enough.

I can't decide if Garcia works better as the Lady of Shallot (Elaine) or a Lady of the Lake type figure (Nimue/Niniane/Vivienne).

If Morgan's not based on a later Gawain or an earlier version of Agravain (before he gets covered in ignomy because of his part in exposing Guinevere's affair with Lancelot), I'd be tempted to say he's modeled at least somewhat on either Lamorak (given the tendency cause strife, despite being the third strongest of Arthur's Knights) or else on Lucan or Griflet (who are always loyal to Arthur to the very end). Though Morgan might also work as Palamedes, too, given the whole conversion during the Grail Quest motif for that character . . .


Reid actually kind of works better, in the context of the show, as a conflation of several Grail knights and Arthurian characters, starting with Perceval and including Bors (the Younger), Galahad, and Gingalain. Though if he's going to keep his status as a Percival, he'll have to resist the temptation of the drugs, or else he'll go by well of Elle and perhaps become the true Medraut (Mordred) of the show . . .

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

These are clever, but I disagree on JJ--ALTHOUGH. *She* works great as Leodegrance.

Remember who the person really herding those cats is. *g*

[polgarawolf.livejournal.com]

I'm probably being too clever for my own good. I'm good at doing such things.

*Lol!* Now there's an idea! JJ as a guiding force behind it all. Which is fairly true.

I think I chose the Grail heroine for her, though, because Dindrane guides a lot of the Grail Quest and ends up giving her blood that another may live. JJ does kind of "guide" their quests and she's taken enough hits lately that I can see her developing that kind of self-sacrificial mentality - especially if we're right about Reid being headed for a bit of a meltdown and she's convinced herself that he's alright (and more especially if she convinces herself somehow that what happens with Reid is part of what brings about Gideon's fall, when he breaks).

[polgarawolf.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. If we're going to stick entirely to Grail Arthuriana, though, the best matches might be:

Gideon as a conflation of Pellinore and the Fisher King (as in, le Roi Pêcheur, le Roi blessé, and le Roi Méhaignié, all rolled into one), who can therefore act as a sort of father figure for all of the other "knights" while also being the former guardian of the Grail who suffers a wound that will not heal because he has fallen into sin in some unspecified manner. (Pellinore - perpetually chasing the Questing Beast and unable to catch it. Pellinore - father of Tor, Aglovale, Lamorak, Dornar, Percival, and Dindrane, who is an eventual servant of the Grail. The Fisher King - Pelles/Pellam, the Wounded/Maimed King of the Dolorous Stroke that will not heal.)

Elle as Morgan le Fay, a character who on the one hand heals and on the other endlessly tempts and tests others and is someone often concerned with infidelity (and quite possibly could therefore work as the cause of Gideon's fall into sin, as he has failed to protect her properly).

Morgan as either Sir Palamedes the Saracen (who is sometimes the one who finally catches the Questing Beast, who loves someone he should not, and who converts to join in the Grail Quest) or Sir Aglovale (eldest legit. son of Pellinore, the one who first brings Percival to Camelot to be knighted, and who either dies accidentally at Gawain's hand during the Quest for the Holy Grail or else is among the knights who're charged with defending the execution of Guinevere and killed when Lancelot and his men rescue her, depending on which source you go by). Or he could possibly be Gawain, if you want to use the German version of the Grail Quest [Diu Crône] and conflate that Gawain with the more normal representation of Gawain in other Arthuriana. (And yes, I know, some of this sounds more like Hotch, but unfortunately, Hotch rather has to be Lancelot.)

Garcia as the Lady of the Lake. Or possibly an Elaine. (Because Nimue is Merlin's replacement, Elaine of Benoic is Lancelot's birth mother, Vivianne is Lacelot's foster mother, Elaine of Carbonek [the Grail Maiden] is Galahad's mother, and Elaine of Astolat is the Lady of Shalott. And Garcia is a goddess and the Elaines and the Lady of the Lake figures average out to about two and a half of the three basic goddess tropes in Arthurian legend. Heh. And anyone who gets that will understand why Garcia + Elle + JJ yields multiples of all three goddess tropes at once.)

Hotch as Lancelot.

JJ as Dindrane, the Grail heroine. (Yes, the one who sacrifices all of her blood in order to cure someone of leprosy.)

Reid as the Grail Knight triad of Galahad, Percival, and Bors.

Prentiss as a different manifestation of the Lady of the Lake. Or possibly of an Elaine. (Again, because Nimue is Merlin's replacement, Elaine of Benoic is Lancelot's birth mother, Vivianne is Lacelot's foster mother, Elaine of Carbonek [the Grail Maiden] is Galahad's mother, and Elaine of Astolat is the Lady of Shalott.)


And yes, I know Gideon is supposed to be the Lancelot figure. But if we're sticking with a Grail Quest motif, folks, Gideon is the one with the wound that won't heal but which might be healed by the intervention of a Knight on a successful quest while Hotch is the one whose basic goodness but attachment to a woman will let him see the Grail but not win it. *Shrugs* Sorry for the overlap between Garcia and Prentiss, but the women are harder to cast for Grail Quest characters, partially because less is known about their backgrounds.



And please take this whole ramble with a hefty grain of salt. I have a sinus infection and am currently rather medicated.

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

I like Gideon for Pellinore/Pelleas (That's genius), but I think you are getting unecessarily hung up on gender roles WRT the women.

Especially since the narrative definitely codes Elle and Prentiss as male--Elle is the butch one, remember, and Prentiss is the strong silent type. I think they, in particular, *have* to be knights, and not ladies.

Elle is the antithises of Morgan le Fey, in that Morgan is all about feminine wiles. And Elle would laugh in your face if you suggested she try that....

[polgarawolf.livejournal.com]

Well, that didn't quite post right, did it? *Sighs over the formatting error*

That's entirely possible, especially for Prentiss and maybe even Garcia. But I still think Elle works as Morgan. Morgan le Fay isn't necessarily a seductress. That's a later idea more from modern fantasy (and a confusion of Morgan with Morgause) than anything else. Morgan's role is often that of a figure who tests people by tempting them to take an easier route instead of doing whatever is right (Sir Gawain and the Green Knight). And she started out in the legends as a healer of Avalon - someone able to heal Arthur's wound. That's why I pegged her for Elle. Elle's reaction to The Fisher King story-arc is a test that Gideon and Hotch (and the others, to a lesser extent, with the possible exception of Reid) fail. She had the potential to provide healing, but the test is a failure. If she returns to the show, I think her character would begin to actively try to reveal the failings of her former co-workers. She would want to show that they're not worthy of their positions. And Morgan le Fay tries to unseat Arthur from the throne because she doesn't believe that he's worthy of it any longer. That's where I mostly make that connection. Plus, I see her earlier involvement in sex offender cases as a sort of healing. I'm not sure I could coherently explain why, though.

[10pmpacifictime.livejournal.com]

If you're using later Arthuriana (when the whole incest angle was introduced) then I think the unsubs are Mordred. They are betrayers of the kingdom (of humanity). Mordred like the unsubs was damaged and demonized through no fault of his own, but rather than rising above his damage (like Galahad) he allows his anger and resentment to become an excuse to harm others.

[10pmpacifictime.livejournal.com]

And I like Elle for Lancelot.

[10pmpacifictime.livejournal.com]

And J.J.=Nimue? I really need to sit down and work this all out for myself. *trundles of after her Mallory*

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting take. *g*