Late because I've no idea what day of the week it is...

[a_blackpanther]

This is the discussion post for Episode 9x05 - "Route 66". Watch out for SPOILERS in the comments.

Comments

[mycha-kk.livejournal.com]

Whoa, First one to comment! (and I watched it like twelve hours after the airing...) Hope you, guys, will come later :)

I LOVED the episode. I'm not sure what I loved more: Hotch's storyline or the case. Both were exceptionally good and well executed. Lots of feelings, tragedy and ...hope. I like that the stories were parallels not just contrasting ones. Loved all the symbolism of Hotchner's vision and the bravery and love of the daughter. Garcia was an amazing bright spot and I love that about her. Also Rossi just needs to stand there and it's enough for him to be awesome ;) (and yes, I'm talking about the driver thing :P ). Yay for some Morgan/Reid silly scene. And, once more I wonder about JJ and what we'll learn about her history this season considering the fact that her suicidal sister was mentioned again...

to sum up this week, how do they do it to make each episode better than the last, I wonder....

On a side note, this made me ultimately a Hotch/Haley shipper. They always makes me cry with their tragic but such a big love story... Also the ep reminded me that ultimately the 'best' team member's enemy was the Boston Ripper - he truly evoked lots of feelings in me and this episode brought the to the surface.

It seems we really are revisiting the past episodes - do you think we'll get a little bit of Ellie and what happened to her, that was saved by Morgan from the Prince of Darkness? How about Agent Seaver? Would you like to see them back or something else from previous seasons?

[ruralstar.livejournal.com]

I don't think Ellie is a real possibility but Seaver maybe as she did continue in the bureau. They made an effort to actually develop her backstory, give her a reason to be an agent.

[mycha-kk.livejournal.com]

Pity, I'd love to see what has happened to Ellie. And I wouldn't mind seeing Seaver, as I found her story interesting and she had a nice mentor/student relationships with Hotch and Rossi so it would be nice to see some of it once more. :)

[a_blackpanther]

One of the posters in the cinema (behind them, as they parted) wa "Kindred Hearts". Yeah, I don't think i've ever liked Hotch/Haley this much before. But then that was the Hailey in Hotch's head, so she would be better than the real thing.

Also, can we talk about just how screwed up Hotch's subconscious is?

[mycha-kk.livejournal.com]

I noticed the poster, it was shown in the last scene with all the hugging.

And hm, isn't subconscious supposed to be kinda screwed? ;) but seriously, 'i think there has been a lot of stuff in that subconscious sequence. He's guilt over Haley and Foyet deaths; his guilt over being with Beth; his insecurities about fatherhood; his inability to open up/show true feelings; Rossi being his mentor, guide; also I think he glorifies Haley (maybe because of the way she died, but she was so dolled up in his dreams that she came as unreal). But I liked that story line with Hotch.

What are your thoughts on it all?

[a_blackpanther]

You're right on all those counts. But in his subconscious Haley and Foyet are like BFFs or something. And he keeps relieving haley's death - that's SERIOUSLY screwed up.

Hotch definitely glorifies Haley - probably since the divorce, actually, not just her death. I like that she was so dolled up, I could definitely buy that that's the Haley Hotch remembers.

And can we talk about how good TG looks in a tux?

[mycha-kk.livejournal.com]

We can, we can! talk, gush, and fangirl ;) He looks great!

The BBF was weird and creepy. But since I'm a religious person I assumed it might have been that he needed peace with the dead or that after death there is peace for the dead and all the bad stuff is resolved/doesn't have place. The show doesn't go for the religious stuff as far as i remember so this is just my interpretation (or trying to rationalize that creepiness). And I do like the dolled up Haley cause it was an insight into Hotch's mind/heart.

[runriggers.livejournal.com]

I think in a way that's how Hotch always saw Haley, they were high school sweethearts after all.

[ruralstar.livejournal.com]

I agree regarding Hotch's feelings about Haley. She was his soulmate for want of a better term. And as stated by her sister, their marriage didn't end because they fell out of love. His job got in the way. Beth can relate to him in a different way in part because he's evolving as a person.

And I'll jump on the TG fan club. He looked sharp as hell in that tux!

[periantari.livejournal.com]

The Hotch storyline is so great!!! This episode has got to be one of my favorites in all the seasons that this show has been on. So many feelings in this ep-- I loved it so much. The subconscious sequence was awesome--I think he is guilty for Haley very much so and I loved Rossi being there at the end to drive him away back to living and trying to let go and be there for Jack and Beth now.....

[full-metal-ox.livejournal.com]

Also, can we talk about just how screwed up Hotch's subconscious is?

Is there any such thing as an un screwed-up subconscious? I'm serious; I sure as hell know I haven't got one.

[eviltracey.livejournal.com]

No Seaver, please. She was a badly conceived character who should never have been part of the BAU.

[ruralstar.livejournal.com]

I don't have a lot to say about this episode that mycha_kk hasn't already said. I really enjoyed the episode. i thought it was well balanced in terms of Hotch and the case. The Reaper is my favorite villain of the series. Incredibly creepy. Made more so by his attitude in the dream. Hotch/Haley break my heart. Haley's death is one of the most affecting fictional deaths I've ever watched on TV or in the movies.

I loved that the case wasn't what everyone thought. That Reid and Co's profiles were accurate, but only up to a point. It's okay to be wrong and while people did die in this episode the body count wasn't off the charts. It wasn't particularly grisly either, which I'm very happy about. They are leaning much harder on the psychological aspects of crime so far this year and I'm LOVING that turn of events.

I think s9 stumbled coming out of the gate but they are getting stronger each week. I have high hopes right now for a solid season.

Edited to add that I really loved yet another connection to Reid/Maeve's story with Rossi showing Reid the picture of the 1947 Buick and referencing his Uncle Sal. The relative he used to help Reid understand the grieving process in Alchemy. Little nods like this show us that the writers are paying attention and trying to give some continuity for all of the characters.

[a_blackpanther]

I think this is the first time they've predicted a suicide by cop and it didn't end that way, I LOVED that twist so much!

I've been enjoying season 9 much much more than 8. It's a lot of "back to the basics", a lot more profiling, green screen walkthroughs, the tight-knit family,

Also, was Rossi Hotch's driver? Because LOL.

[mzkitteh.livejournal.com]

Yes, Rossi was his driver, and that's a car Joe Montegna owns in real life. It was the first car he bought yrs ago and he recently had it restored. Pretty cool!

[a_blackpanther]

That's awesome!

[ruralstar.livejournal.com]

OOOO I didn't know either of those facts! Thanks for sharing.

[mzkitteh.livejournal.com]

You're welcome! I can't remember if he tweeted about it, or posted on FB. Either or I thought it was pretty cool. :)

[saralindstrom.livejournal.com]

Yes, both previous posters summed it up pretty well! I also loved this episode, for all the reasons stated above. I loved the use of Foyet in Hotch's dream, too. When he first came onto the screen I was genuinely surprised and asked me hubby "Is that Foyet?!" I suppose I should have expected it, since the dream seemed to help bring Hotch closure from Haley's death. I've always bordered on like/dislike of Haley, but this definitely helped me make up my mind to like her. Their marriage fell apart because neither was willing to compromise, not because they didn't love each other.

[mycha-kk.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you on the closure part. I think Hotchner needed not only closure about Haley's death but the fact he killed Foyet in (understandable concerning the circumstances) rage. And them coming together and it all playing the way it did was exactly for the closure and a true ability to move on for Hotch. Also I find it very telling that Haley gave him the ring, her ring. I'm sure we might be having a wedding in the future.

[saralindstrom.livejournal.com]

If Hotch and Beth get engaged, the writers need to seriously make Beth more appealing. Or more real. I feel like they're trying too hard to make her likeable, she doesn't feel like a real person. She's too perfect and one dimensional.

[freakingdork.livejournal.com]

except Erica has (infuriatingly) said that Hotch has not and will not receive closure from this: http://www.tvguide.com/News/Criminal-Minds-Thomas-Gibson-Haley-TheReaper-1072390.aspx

(which is hilarious because it really seems like Hotch had got closure (albeit off screen) YEARS ago, given his behavior over the past 3-4 years, and while I find this shit disappointing, I've found that Erica throwing these types of things out the window no longer surprises me.)

[periantari.livejournal.com]

well it's hard to get complete closure out of a homicide like that, especially of someone as closed to you as your ex-wife. It's hard to deal with death so I think that is what Erica meant by Hotch not getting complete closure. It's too hard to let go, it is more like moving on in life because there is no choice.

[moon-blitz.livejournal.com]

I totally didn't expect to see Foyet again, or at least not before the 200th episode, so having him pop up was quite a surprise. I found this to be the strongest episode of the season so far, and I love all the continuity nods with Rossi and JJ. Everyone else said what I wanted to say, so I'll just add that I'm excited about next week and I'm interested to see what else will happen this season.

[blythechild.livejournal.com]

I'm not overly fond of where this show has been going since season 8, but having said that, I was pleasantly surprised by last night's episode. There was a healthy dose of character introspection that we don't usually get, and the case was more about UnSub motivations and personal dynamics than the gore and/or screaming victims that we usually get. Hotch's hallucination was just surreal enough to be both interesting and artful even if I found the inclusion of Foyet to be disappointing (it was a good idea, just underwritten). It was a long overdue closure to that segment of Hotch's life - I was especially impressed at Hotch articulating his fear at being alone and a little helpless about raising Jack. I was starting to believe that he had been switched out for a robot somewhere in season 6...

The case was a satisfying character study and I truly felt for both father and daughter in the end. I loved that the daughter saved the day and that the stand-off didn't end like they usually do.

In short, if more episodes this season focus on character, rather the gruesome for shock value, I think that I could come to love this show as much as I once did.

[shari-mg.livejournal.com]

I thought last night was the best episode in while.

[freakingdork.livejournal.com]

if y'all don't mind, an entirely different opinion: this episode was completely and utterly out of place (topping "profiling 101" for "the most out of place episode" imho) and such a huge mess, so all it did was make me mad.

in terms of Hotch's characterization and narrative, it made little sense where it was. take this episode and place it in season 6 (or perhaps early season 7 when he was more likely to be struggling with whether or not it was ~okay~ to be happy with Beth)...and I would have had major "this episode is breaking my heart" feels. instead, they basically ret-conned 3-4 years worth of characterization in the name of fan service. Hotch WAS happy, Hotch KNEW he wasn't alone, Hotch DIDN'T NEED Haley's approval of Beth (tho I'll happily use it against Beth haters); he didn't need his (completely idealized) dead ex-wife to tell him that.

(maybe it's just me, but they were broken up for TWO YEARS before her death and while Hotch loved her and cared for her well being, he didn't seem to be IN LOVE with her anymore. their relationship wasn't some epic love story; it was a story of love not always being enough to weather certain hardships. this pretty much made the whole "I wanna stay with you" bits rather laughable and OOC to me.)

Foyet was completely useless and everything that came out of his mouth made me giggle, except the "rip her to shreds" bit which just pissed me off. was that really necessary? we know he's a bad guy, we don't need threats of rape to remind us of that.

and as far as writing goes, dream sequences are the character's subconscious talking to themselves. a far more effective way to bring up some of these issues would have been Hotch having a conversation with Rossi or Reid about how losing someone you love to a serial killer affects you (since they BOTH DID last season). that would have served a PURPOSE, which was entirely absent from this episode (especially considering the interview with Erica saying he's not going to get closure, which lol he seems to have already gotten, but yeah ok sure).

finally, the "she's not you" comment bothers me, not in the actual context (talking about Jack not having his mom), but in the context the fandom appears to be taking it in? I've seen a lot of people thinking he was saying Beth is lesser in some aspect as compared to Haley re: their romantic relationship (esp bc some ppl are mistaking his next line as "she's not enough" when he actually said "and I'm not enough"). but even if it were true that he said "she's not you," it's GOOD that Beth isn't Haley, she shouldn't be and Haley wouldn't want her to be. from 100, we know Haley wanted Hotch and Jack to be happy and if Beth were just like Haley, they'd just be heading down the same unhappy path.

also I would have liked more explanation on the internal bleeding. as someone who works in health care, this made very little sense to me. did an unsub punch him in the gut on the case they'd just returned from? did he work out too hard before laying down with that case file? scar tissue doesn't just ~rip~ open for no goddamn reason. sooooooo that was some complete bs.

on top of all this, the case was pretty messy and JJ just spilling all those graphic details of her sister's suicide was out of place and unnecessary; it felt like they were doing it for spectacle of it. if I had to sit through those details, could I at least get a NAME? that woulda been nice.

it kinda makes me feel insensitive, given how other people are reacting, but this episode was way too much of a mess to give me any kind of feelings at all.

[ruralstar.livejournal.com]

I would say each to their own opinion so no worries.

The only comment I have in response speaks to timing. People don't grieve in a linear fashion. Beth didn't come along right after Hotch's divorce or even Haley's death. There was a time lapse there. And while yes he does know intellectually that he can be happy and that he is not alone, this was more about internal doubt for me. Knowing something and truly believing it are two different things. Also, they got divorced because of his job, not because they didn't love one another. Haley was his first love and a part of him will always love her no matter how happy Beth or anyone else might make him. Lastly, like any parent Hotch will occasionally feel inadequate. Add that he is a single parent in a very demanding job that keeps him away from Jack far more than a regular 9-5, I can totally buy that he is still unsure no matter how well adjusted Jack appears.

Just another way to view the situation.

[freakingdork.livejournal.com]

oh trust me, I know that grieving/healing isn't a linear thing; I still suffer PTSD symptoms 8 years after stuff happened to me.

my issue is that, within narratives, some things need to be wrapped up within a certain timeframe or else they don't make sense within the context of the show. plotlines can and do expire. if this dream scene was a slab a meat, I would have felt comfortable cooking it up and eating it in season 6 (likely while sobbing uncontrollably). I would have been cautious about consuming it in the first bit of 7, but I probably wouldn't get food poisoning. season 9? it's getting tossed immediately and I'm bleaching the hell outta the entire fridge, wondering who it is I need to yell at for leaving it in there so long.

maybe I would have been okay if it was JUST about feeling inadequate re: Jack (and got rid of Foyet because he'd be even more useless there) and I probably would have understood having a flashback because of a case (tho if there was new Foyet footage, we would probably have gotten a graphic rape scene, given what Foyet said about proving he doesn't stab his victims bc he's impotent). what I can't get behind is Hotch needing Haley to tell him it's okay for him to be happy when he's literally been happy for 2-3 years (since season 7 at the latest) with little to no signs of being guilty about feeling that way.

that's what I mean by saying about the episode being out of place, unnecessary, making very little sense, and ret-conning years of character growth.

(additionally I was confused as to why you brought up them divorcing because of his work; I never said they broke he didn't love her (quite the opposite). I said "their relationship wasn't some epic love story; it was a story of love not always being enough to weather certain hardships." yes, she was his first love, his high school sweetheart, and she will always have a place in his heart, but that doesn't mean he'd feel like he needs her permission after all this time. again, in season 6? oh definitely. when he first meets Beth? I can totally buy that. after he's been happy for 3-4 years and dating Beth for 2 years? no, nope, can't. don't get me wrong, I've always been angry that Hotch's healing has been entirely offscreen, but it's been far too long since it happened for this specific scenario.)

[joospjos.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree completely. It looked promising but ended up feeling really random in terms of "why this now?".

[la-loony.livejournal.com]

For some reason I felt like the whole thing about being happy with Beth wasn't really the issue for Hotch and some sort of lying to himself (since he was dreaming it all). His relationship with Beth was not his problem, his doubts about is parenting were. Which I felt was the point where he got so emotional while talking to Haley but that might just be me.
Idk I guess because the episode started with him feeling bad for falling asleep at work instead of going home to his kid and then 1/2 minutes after saying he'd come home he had to call again because he wouldn't come home after all I felt like that was the actual problem for him. Still don't get why Foyet was there but somehow I enjoyed seeing him not as the total creep and giggle at some of his remarks. It was certainly weird though.
The "I wanna stay with you" line just seemed to me like he wanted to die because he felt so inadequate as a parent and not because of his undying love for Haley or something. Some kind of taking the easy way out instead of dealing with the issue for real once he wakes up in the hospital and all that.

[meepalicious.livejournal.com]

I actually cried at the end of this episode. I started getting choked up when Haley and Hotchner were talking in the theater of his subconscious, but then I got a little teary eyed when he woke up and Garcia was there waiting for him, and then when the unsub surrendered because his daughter didn't want him to die? I actually broke down sobbing. I'm still sniffling right now.

[periantari.livejournal.com]

It was very emotional episode-- something we don't always get in Criminal Minds...because of its' emo-ness, it ranks highly in my mind. :) I was tearing a lot too!!!