Discussion Post: Vigilantism

[gen-is-gone.livejournal.com]

So, the show has had quite a few would-be vigilantes over the years (A Real Rain and Hotch's actions in 100 coming most readily to mind) but specifically in regards to Regina in Unknown Subject, there were quite a few comments saying the Emily shouldn't have deceived her, and even some that said Regina should have been allowed to murder her rapist. While I agree that the Piano Man was a despicable person, and his crimes warranted his hatred, I found slightly off-putting the idea that one of our team members would condone revenge murders, especially given the past anti-vigilante themes on the show. So my question for you is this: what stance do you think the show has taken in regards to vigilantes and revenge killers, and do you agree?

Comments

[jennygadget.livejournal.com]

You know, I didnt really see that being about revenge killings in general, but specifically about sexualized violence towards women.

The comments Regina made were not about revenge but about feeling safe; the point about Doyle that was made - that we the audience knew better than Regina - was that Prentiss' safety as well as emotional well being would have been compromised had Doyle lived. Likewise, part of what was set up in that episide was the way that sexual assault survivors are so often revictimized; the references to Doyle - I thought - were meant to evoke how posessive and dangerous abusers of intimate partners can be.

So, I also didnt take the ending to be a justification for vigilante murders either, but rather a call to re-examine how we prosecute rape and how we support (or, sadly, more often dont support) rape survivors. To the extent that vigilante murders were justified, imho, it was within the specific context that we cannot expect victims to follow the law if we do not take the time and energy to enforce it on their behalf.

[ansera.livejournal.com]

I found that quite strange too, the idea that people could think that on the show, Regina should've had the chance to get her revenge (because, I don't think there's another word for that). I think the show's been fairly constant on not allowing people to get their own personal revenge, first thing that comes to mind is Reid trying to stop that protective custody witness from killing the man who'd kidnapped his daughter? When that girl started telling him to do it, I honestly thought that nothing good could come from it - it doesn't achieve anything and I was pretty annoyed with the character (which, I suppose, is what they intended for some).

I appreciate this stance, it gives them the objectivity that they should have in their jobs. Even with Foyet, Hotch was afraid about him killing his son and I don't blame him for that. Was there a lot of anger in smashing his head in? Yeah, but given the circumstances I think that Hotch's thoughts were more focused on protecting his son and fueled by his anger from his wife's murder. They try to keep some sort of limitations on even what they can achieve as cops/agents/any figure of authority, and it's nice to see them trying to do right by the law instead of their own emotions. It's why Elle made me so frustrated, after killing that rapist.

On a side note, a show like NCIS doesn't do this - Gibbs kills his family's killer (this, I can almost understand because he's in grief/hurt) but that he's helped by a cop I can't. It'd be nice to imagine that the justice system did hand out justice, but even if it doesn't, I don't think it's up to people to start dishing it out. Considering the place these agents are in, I think any vigilante action on their part would be completely inappropriate. When normal citizens do it, I can't say that I like the fact that they do -I still think they shouldn't- but I can understand how someone could be pushed to try. But, at the end of the day, it's still up to other people to stop them.

[citjara.livejournal.com]

While I haven't seen "Unkown Subject", I'd argue the show has always rather condemed vigilantism, with the possible exception of Aaron Hotchner, and even then, there was an inquiry into his behavior and choices and I was always under the impression that Hotch himself was shaken by the way he just "snapped". It was understandable, and made understandable for the viewer.

Elle, when she lost it, was portrayed as being completely irresponsible and irrational, and there was hardly any "sympathy" invoked (with me, anyway). It was clear she was at fault, and had not acted in self-defense.

Reid, when he watched the father kill the unsub in "Third Life", not only try to talk him out of it, we later learned he was so shaken by the experience that he wanted to use again AND went out of his way to save Zack (Elephant's Memory).

In "A Real Rain", it was made pretty clear that vigilante justice cannot circumvent real justice, even if that's sometimes slow and not always blind or fair.

I think by protraying vigilantes this way, the show reflects LEOs pretty well. While they know the infamous side of the justice system, I'm quite certain they know how important it is and how important it is that the rules aren't broken and twisted. I'd even say we, as a society, hold LEOs to a higher standard. They have to be the calming force in times of heat and they have to put their feelings aside and do their job.

[gsyh.livejournal.com]

I've known too many real life cases of re-offenders*, to feel anything but an urge to applause when someone kills a sexual predator. I don't care if they did it for a self-center reason, in general, assassination is less about the target than what is going on in the assassin's life - I surmise that the Cape Breton vigilante killer. Stephen A. Marshall, was not driven to suicide by police pursuit - he was always going to kill himself, for some reason, he was depressed, he wanted to die, and he chose killing sex offenders as his last thing as oppose to something like a sunset (or addition, I dunno).

Still, end result - less predators.


*Just one example, among many, look up the origin story for Speak Out for Stephanie:
sos.lawrence.com/

The roommate of a woman he had previously beaten and raped said, as soon as she heard who the suspect for Stephanie's disappearance was, she knew the girl was gone - what the offender had learn from being imprisoned, and then let out while still in the prime of his life, was to leave no witnesses. When ask why he had killed the girl, he simply explained that he did not want to go back to prison.

I believe life sometimes harshly leads you to places where there is no happy outcome - but relatively speaking, I would lose less sleep over the cold blooded murder of a child molester, than letting him live, letting his defence revictimize the victims that do dare testify against him in court, giving the chance that he might go free if they are too terrified to take the stand, or make mistakes in timeline because trauma screws with memory coherence. I would lose less sleep murdering a sexual predator in cold blood, than letting him live, and then to lie awake hereon, wondering if he'll reoffend, and where I would then be complicit because I had the chance to stop him but didn't.

I hope life never leads me someplace where the horrid choice and responsibility would be in my hands, but I hope if it does, I"ll do the right thing. Innocent lives > predator.

[dhae_knight_1]

Having re-watched To Hell... And Back just yesterday, that's probably the closest they ever come to a revenge-killing. Cool, clear, level-headed murder to remove a killer from the world. They show Hightower getting punished, but they still call it a 'sacrifice', implying (at least to my mind) that Hightower did, if not a right thing, then at least an understandable thing. And they underpinned it by having Hotch, Rossi and Reid talk about whether or not they could convict Mason. Not a question that's been asked a lot on the show.

Elle's arc and A Real Rain were probably the two places where the show was clearest about vigilantism. We do not approve of vigilantism, those said, loud and clear, even though Hotch's shooting the unsub in A Real Rain was... Somewhat dubious. And even though sometimes? Getting a conviction might not be certain, even though they *know* this is the unsub.

But I like that the show takes into account that the legal system isn't perfect. I like that our heroes are human and get frustrated and sometimes struggle with doing The Job. If they took the shortcuts and cheated to punish the unsubs (yes, NCIS, I'm still pissed over the Mother-in-law storyline!), it wouldn't be Our Show.

[nwjarvis.livejournal.com]

Speaking of "A Real Rain", Jason Gideon gave us his thoughts on the subject...

Hotch: Ever cross your mind?

Gideon: Taking the law into my own hands?

Hotch: Not the law. Justice.

Gideon: What's this about? The boys in Iowa?

Hotch: Just a question.

Gideon: I guess I think if I ever let my mind go there then the unsubs will be getting into my head instead of me getting into theirs. That wouldn't be a good idea now, would it?