Need help for a potential Criminal Minds/Dexter crossover

[liliaeth]

I've been watching Dexter lately, and the more often I watch s2, my fave season, the more I start thinking of what would have happened if Dexter had had to deal with the BAU instead of Frank Lundy.

So anyone feel like helping me out in how the BAU would profile the Bay Harbor Butcher? And what differences there'd be in how the gang would deal with the case, in comparison to how it was dealt with on the show?

And most of all, can anyone explain to me, why so far I've found only one CM/Dexter crossover? Because I've been wanting one, since I first started watching Dexter
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Comments

[liliaeth]

Yeah, I know that feeling*g*, thing is, I'm also really interested in the consequences of what would happen if Dexter got caught, how his friends and family would react if they knew. Esp. Deb and Rita.

[took-skye.livejournal.com]

First...I think that the BAU would likely profile the Bay Harbor Butcher much like profiler Frank Lundy did on Dexter...only much, much, more efficiently since, haha, there's a team of them!

Second...I think vivier hit the nail on the head as to why there aren't many CM/Dexter crossovers...everyone would be torn rooting for both and, really, only one could win, haha!

Third...Good luck, brave writer! (The CM/Dexter idea has crossed my mind myself but, again, only one can win and I can't pick which, haha!!!) :D

[liliaeth]

I guess it's easier for me, since I really want to see what happens if Dexter loses and gets caught*eg*

I love Dexter, don't get me wrong, but I really really want to see how his friends and family would react if they knew ;-)

[took-skye.livejournal.com]

Haha, well it would be interesting to see what happens! ...And, odds are, Dexter would probably loose against the whole team so that would be the more realistic outcome. Also I'd certainly read a CM/Dexter crossover just to see how it all plays out. :D

Haha, Debra flip the f**king f**k out, haha! ;-)

[djan31.livejournal.com]

This is completely useless, but is Dexter a good show? I've heard it is, but never actually had the chance to watch it...

[djan31.livejournal.com]

Advice taken. :)
-scurries away-

[liliaeth]

Dexter is awesome, in the four seasons of the show, there's been only one character on the show that I didn't like, and she was intended to be annoying.

[lyingsmiles.livejournal.com]

YES

[pink-siamese.livejournal.com]

I have this one friend on my f-list who is always begging me to a) write Dexter fanfic, or b) write a Dexter/CM crossover. But I'm always begging her to write Alien femmeslash, so I guess we're even.

I think a crossover could be done, but it would take a very skilled writer to pull it off. It would take some doing to balance the tensions between Dexter fans (who root for him) and CM fans (who root for the team) in order to create a story that is satisfying overall--ultimately it would require the kind of skill on the part of the writer that can convince readers to go along with completely different presentations of well-known characters.

That's a lot of work. I'd have to have a burning fever for the characters and the kind of fabulous plot that is so shiny and awesome that all that bright shininess keeps you awake at night. Since that kind of celestial convergence doesn't happen very often, that's probably why there aren't enough Dexter/CM crossovers.

[liliaeth]

Yeah I'd rather see it done by another (and undoubtably better) writer than me, but since there seems to be a lack of it, the idea just keeps on playing through my head.

[pink-siamese.livejournal.com]

I guess my short answer is "it looks hard, and lots of times people don't want to put that much work into something."

However, just because it's hard doesn't mean that it isn't worth doing. It totally is. If you want to, you should totally do it.

[liliaeth]

thinking it might be interesting to set it during his trial, and then tell the story through flashbacks as the characters get questioned, hmmm, not sure yet.

[nytekit.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm going to come back and actually give a response to your question, but I just wanted to say that I have always considered a crossover! Same as you, once I started watching Dexter I instinctively wanted to pit them against each other!!!

That being said, I'll be back later with -hopefully - useful advice.

[lunamazes.livejournal.com]

I really like this one.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5604424/1/Sharks_in_Suits

[liliaeth]

I've read that one, but it did have one main problem for me. I just can't see Dexter voluntarily telling them about his connection to Brian. I mean, he didn't even tell Deb.

[bbt-criminal.livejournal.com]

i personally think the BAU, oddly enough Hotch in particular, would be more sympathetic in their profile of Dexter than Lundy was. They see enough in their day to day work that someone extracting a little vengeance might be appreciated. i might go off-canon and have Dex kill Foyet so the guilt isn't on Aaron's conscience. this way, they're not opposed. i might be tempted to read Dexter fic written by CM fans; the stuff I have tried to read just squicked me right out. Most folks seem to ignore the code altogether and also turn poor Dex into some kind of pedophile. It's enough to make me wish Astor was never on the show at all.

[liliaeth]

Hmm my main problem seems to be that a lot of people seem to either hate Rita, or they base the story on the books rather than the series. (personally I think the series is much much better than the books)
Or and this is a big one for me, they have Deb just accept that Dexter kills people.

See, I can see the BAU being sympathetic, but like Lundy, they would know he needs to be stopped. Just like they stopped that one artist guy who was killing the gang members that had murdered his girlfriend.

Dexter may have the code, but like Lundy made the difference, he's not just a vigilante, he's a serial killer. And they have no idea how long Dexter can keep his murders restricted to just murderers. Hell in s3 he already killed a man for being a potential threat to Astor, and in s4 (uhm, have you watched s4?), he already accidentally broke the code.

Thing is, Dexter needs to be stopped, for his own good as well as that of others. But that of course wouldn't stop them from being sympathetic.

I do wonder, would Dexter be sent to a mental institute or prison. I'm personally leaning towards the former, esp. considering Harry's brainwashing of him from an early age on.

There really are Dexter/Astor fics? Seriously? Thank God I haven't run into those. I mean it's pretty much canon that Dexter reviles anyone that preys on children. He specifically states in several points in the show that he would never hurt children.

[bbt-criminal.livejournal.com]

Dex seems torn between either giving the Dark Passenger the boot altogether (not likely, but possible- the BTK killer stopped for 20 years in RL), or going completely off the rails in a total devolution where the code won't matter. I'd like to see a story where he ends up in a hospital with, say, Owen Savage and Nathan Harris. Reid could come to visit. Maybe throw in Adam/Amanda just for romance...
The whole Deb just accepts it thing is totally bogus, I can't agree more. I could see her being suspicious, trying really hard to ignore it, and having some sort of breakdown.
Hate Rita? Lots of people do, yes. I think those are the ones that want to see Dex become totally evil. The show wouldn't be as much fun that way. The interesting part for me is trying to separate nature from nurture. Being raised in such a way that you are lead to become something is powerful. I'm in the camp of people that believe Brian (Ice Truck) totally aside, Dexter's murders are Harry's fault.

[liliaeth]

I can't agree more. Harry basically, took a fucked up kid, who was already troubled and told him he was going to be a monster, but that that's ok. He then made sure that said kid hid his condition, never allowing him to reveal his true thoughts, while continuously telling him that his desire to kill was expected and would increase, thus insuring that it would, since Dexter believed what he told him.

Dexter wasn't a full psychopath when he first killed those animals, when he first felt the urge to kill. If he were, it wouldn't have mattered whether or not his foster parents would have approved of it or not. Harry pretty much assured that Dexter never got the help he needed, based on an amateur's knowledge of psychology.

Harry told his son, that he was a monster, but that it was ok, as long as he killed the people that daddy said were ok to kill. And then, worst of all, when he finally realized what he'd done, instead of helping to repair the damage he'd done, he took the cowards way out and killed himself.

Also, by keeping Dexter away from Brian, he took away the last chance to reach out to Brian, and became partly responsible for the murderer that Brian became. Had Brian been allowed to know Dexter while growing up, he might have had a reason to believe in humanity and want to do better. (well... maybe*g*)

[bbt-criminal.livejournal.com]

Brian could have become a killer the old-fashioned way, with tons of mental and physical abuse from a foster family that only took him to get the cash from the government. There's a CM episode about two brothers that kill families during home invasions that covers this scenario.

We have no way to know whether Dexter would have even killed the animals in the first place if he hadn't already been expected to act out that way. Harry might not have been overtly telling him he a was a killer, but there are lots of ways to encourage aggressive behaviour.

[liliaeth]

true and hell, sending a four a five year old to a mental hospital, regardless of what the reason is... still no way to grow up happily.

either way, my favorite part of the show is the part where Dexter is torn by his desire to be normal, and his desire to kill. If he were just a killer, happily accepting what he is, he'd be boring.

[lastrega.livejournal.com]

There's a really brilliant vid that's a Dexter/CM xover.

Convenient Parking (http://cherryice.livejournal.com/233759.html).

[liliaeth]

seen it, it's awesome. Now if only some author were willing to write the story to go with it ;-)

[dragonladyk.livejournal.com]

That would be exceptionally difficult since the two shows have diametrically opposite themes. Criminal Minds is a show that condemns the actions serial killers take as men and stands completely opposed to the idea of glorifying violence and mythologizing serial killers. The CM PTB show us the grieving families serial killers leave behind and the ambiguity of vigilantes who can be and often are wrong. Sympathy for what made a serial killer what he is is often par for the course, but his actions are always viewed as ultimately flawed or reprehensible.

Dexter, on the other hand, glorifies the vigilante actions of its protagonist. We don't see the full horror and devastation his actions would leave behind in the real world, we aren't to feel horror at them. His acts of violence are to be rooted for and the audience is to hope he does not get caught so he can continue.

Personally I find Dexter to be deplorable. Serial killers should not be mythologized, painted as heroes or in any way admirable, ever. The devastation they leave behind is far too great.

DragonLady

[liliaeth]

I'm sorry to say, but this makes me wonder if you've ever seen Dexter beyond s1. Because one of the reasons I love Dexter, is because it doesn't glorify serial killers. It very much does NOT paint him as a hero, does NOT condone his actions and does NOT make him out to be right. We're shown this very clearly in s2 especially. It's one of the reasons I prefer the show over the books.

The series makes it very clear that Dexter is a damaged messed up man who has murdered people. In s2, several of the shows voices of morality clearly state that what Dexter does, is wrong. In season 2, especially towards the end of it, we're shown through Dexter's attempts to frame Doakes, which he succeeds in, that he's doing this at the cost of an innocent man, a man we by then have come to know, who has a family, friends...

In s4, we're shown another serial killer who also used his family as camouflage and we're shown how this has destroyed every member of that family. And we get Dexter accidentally killing an innocent man, showing that yes, he can be wrong. And despite feeling 'guilt' of some sorts, he does not turn himself in over this.

He's also shown as having a chance to let said serial killer die, only to save him, not because he wants to save a life, but because he wants the man to die by his hands. Once again making it clear to the viewer that no, despite what some people might think, Dexter is NOT a hero.

If Dexter truly were the show you seem to think it is, I wouldn't have kept watching it.

In short, Dexter and Criminal Mind's viewpoints really aren't that far apart from one another. Both showrunners show clearly the damage caused by serial killers and Dexter then adds on to that with the damage the killing does to the man doing the killing.

[dragonladyk.livejournal.com]

Frankly, Season One (and I did watch the whole season waiting for it to get better) disgusted me so thoroughly I didn't go back.

I'm glad to hear they've shown the consequences of Dexter's actions and adopted some sort of moral compass.

That being said, judging how many of the show's fans root for him to continue and do not wish for him to be caught, I don't think that message is sinking in. In a Dexter/CM crossover, there could be no Boondock Saints-like "understanding" reached, and any escape on Dexter's part would have to be treated as a tragedy that will be fixed later ("we'll catch him") to be true to the spirit of CM. I don't think that would appeal to the Dexter fanbase at all.

However, I also concede the possibilty I stumbled upon the nutter-butters contingents of the fanbase and that they are in no way representative of the fanbase as a whole. :/

DragonLady

[liliaeth]

Thing is, as I mentioned earlier on the page, personally, I want to write a fic where he gets caught :-)

In huge part, because I want to see the impact on his friends and family, were they to find out what he's doing.

Of course, the one huge problem is, that if he does get caught, the potential for ongoing stories becomes rather small. Which is why it most likely won't happen until the last season of the actual show.

As far as I see the show, the voices of morality are Dexter's sister, Debra, who clearly states to Dexter that the Bay Harbor Butcher (aka Dexter) is a killer and needs to be stopped. Despite already knowing at this point that the Butcher only kills killers. And Angel Batista, an honest and decent cop, whom in one ep is seen dealing with the wife of one of Dexter's victims.

There's also an interesting contrast, between the media's reaction to the Bay Harbor Butcher, once it comes out he only kills killers and the end of the series, when we see Doakes funeral. Doakes being the man whom Dexter framed for his own crimes.

And you see that the only people attending the service, are Doakes mother, sisters and his former partner who still believes in his innocence (and well Dexter himself) It's one tragedy that I really want to set right in the fic, with the BAU exonerating Doakes and bringing his family the relief of knowing that their son/brother/friend truly was the good man they'd believed him to be and not the murderer they were told he was.

[bbt-criminal.livejournal.com]

Devastation to the families of the people Dexter killed? With only a couple of exceptions they were all truly bad people. I don't have much sympathy for their families. Families make you what you are, and if you're a bad person, well, thank your folks.
Doakes' family deserves to know that he didn't do it, but i doubt they'll bring that up at any point. Any murders Dexter gets convicted for will not include the ones covered by the Bay Harbour Butcher investigation- too embarrassing for the cops. Will he ever get caught? I imagine he will either grow a conscience and turn himself in, or possibly Deb/Angel will kill him.
I'm not sure that the fanbase can really be said to be rooting for him. I certainly don't watch the show for the plastic-wrap moments. It's the psychology of Dexter that keeps me coming back. Same as with CM, I want to know what it is that makes killers different. This is just a much longer explanation.
I kinda wish that Dexter's brother had turned out to be his exact opposite. That would lend some credence to the big build-up they did about Dex being raised to kill by Harry. As it stands, they're falling back on a single traumatic experience to explain everything, which is lame. It takes years of serious abuse to make a serial murderer.
Any Dexter/CM crossover is seriously limited by the expectation that the BAU always gets their guy, true. An in-depth explanation of the sort so readily provided by Dr. Reid would be totally out of place in the Dexter universe. CM is far too realistic for that to work. Dexter is a cartoon compared to any character on CM.

[cannualiciat.livejournal.com]

Holy crap...I totally said it would be my favorite crossover ever on a dexter forum a few weeks back. Can you share that one cross over?