An alternative perspective
Jun. 25th, 2010 08:29 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png)
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EDIT: This is a post for people to talk about WHY THEY WILL STILL WATCH. This isn't for people to reinterate sexism, why CBS sucks, etc. Please keep that in consideration!
I want to try something, and I'm sure it might not go over well. Mods...use your powers if you feel it right. But I think we need this here.There are some of us, while sad AJ is leaving, who aren't going to stop watching the show. We may have thought some of the protests went too far. We may be excited for the change in team chemistry. Basically, we're gonna give it a shot.
We're also afraid that however calm and articulate we are, we'll be seen as flamers or we'll be flamed. I thought this could be the post for those of us who need to get this off our chests. Need to vent in another direction.
Feel free to be anon. I'd urge nobody to slam other fans, just talk about what they hope for season 6, why they aren't going to stop watching, etc. I don't want ANYONE ON ANY SIDE to feel insulted.
Whadda ya think?
EDIT: This is a 'Why I will watch' thread, not yet another place for people to state 'why they won't watch.'
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 01:39 am (UTC)I'm not thrilled AJ is leaving or that Paget is possibly being cut back. But I will keep watching. Frankly, this is Hollywood. The producers and/or network are not doing this because they are evil bastards and want to ruin the show. They are businessmen and this is show business. Whether we agree with their reasons or understand them, money is always the bottom line and they may make choices that disappoint us, but they're their choices to make. These things happen all the time, on every show, and AJ and Paget are both professionals who know the score and know that actors can and often do lose their jobs with little to no warning, through no fault of their own.
Change does not have to mean the end of the show. Sometimes it's good. Often it's not. We'll have to see.
I don't begrudge anyone their protests or their bitterness. I signed the petition, too. But honestly, I don't take it personally.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 01:42 am (UTC)But I'll always miss A. J. Cook. <3
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 01:51 am (UTC)JJ was never my favorite character, but even if she had been, I would have long ago accepted this as part of Hollywood. I have my own conspiracy theory as to why this happened, but that is irrelevant.
The entire concept of giving up on the show entirely because of one (and a half, counting Paget's cutback) cast change so preemptively is, imho, foolish. Calling it "sexist" is just ridiculous. Network execs only see TV shows in terms of ratings and money, simple as that. This isn't about whether women can only be portrayed as worrywart mothers or victims, or not. Many small female roles on CM have been meant to be inspiring. Watch JJ's departure and a couple episodes beyond that to see if CM has truly "jumped the shark".
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 01:53 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 01:52 am (UTC)I'm still going to watch the show, I've been with this show for 5 years and I'm not going to stop watching it because they got rid of some of the actors. Yes I love AJ & Paget with all my heart, but I think that in life sometimes people need to move on, and this could be a great thing for them both if you think about it. They can venture towards movies, and get their name out more.
I look at it this way, I have been a fan of Doctor Who for over 10 years and if I can handle them changing the Doctor and companions every so often I can handle this, and I'm excited to see the new turn the writers and producers have in store for us.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 04:08 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 01:56 am (UTC)I'll be disappointed if it's just one of those silly "oh, moving away, goodbye" tricks. (I think Mandy's departure would have been better if they'd really Gone There with the suicide instead of just playing with it and coping out.)
Ditto the other Doctor Who fan--I can deal with losing and changing characters, if it's done well. These things happen. I signed the petition, and I don't want to lose the girls, but you never know what it can do for the story. It might be awful and I might have to stop watching, but it might end up being great. Rossi was a great addition, and so was Prentiss after Elle pulled her murder stunt. (Another great storyline.)
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 02:01 am (UTC)I certainly HOPE they have better sense than that, though.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 02:00 am (UTC)I'm still a little leery on a new addition (thinking back to JJ's replacement while AJ was on maternity leave), but new characters aren't always a bad thing. My favorite character on CSI: NY didn't show up until season 3 (though, when they killed her off my interest in the show plummeted, but that was because by that point I was primarily watching for her and her onscreen boyfriend). If she's introduced well, and given good charcterization from the get-go, and isn't "JJ 2.0" then I might be okay with her.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 02:40 am (UTC)I like the reference to Doctor Who as well. I think that with Doctor Who, for me anyway, I was 'warned' about the regeneration, or at least when Christopher Ecceleston left learned about it, and the fact that there's always been different Doctors made it easier in some ways.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 02:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 02:16 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 02:16 am (UTC)I love AJ Cook to death. She's a great actress and I see her getting something else. What I'm most upset about is the way CBS did this and how the fans had to fight just to get two episodes.
Having said that, JJ was my never my favorite character. A.J. did a great job, but the past season. This past season made me think of JJ more as window dressing. She didn't do all that much.
The new addition is where I'm wary. I am a huge Supernatural fan, but I can not watch season four without gritting my teeth due to the replacement of Ruby. That actress and the writing team butchered that character, so when I heard they were bringing in another actress for CM, I keep having SPN flashbacks.
Now, if the character is introduced properly and not made out to be a love interest for any of the characters, and the actress can hold up with the other actors, I will gladly accept her.
That's one thing I don't want, is ooshy gushy romance on this show. I hate what oosy gushy love has done to House and I don't want to see another one of my fave shows get infected.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 02:42 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 02:17 am (UTC)But.
I don't agree that "this is just Hollywood, casts change all the time, blahblahblah". What CBS did was shitty and it was low. To fire an actress from one of their top-rated shows without even telling her while everyone was on break? They pulled the rug out from under the entire cast. AJ has handled it with grace but Paget is obviously mad, and that makes ME mad. Seeing all these people saying "oh, it's no big deal", denying sexism, etc. is kind of terrible.
Also, I don't believe that we should have well-written women or none at all. The writers would have eventually had to have given Prentiss a storyline. That sound a little ridiculous but Morgan is getting one now, while Elle, Gideon, Hotch, Garcia, and especially Reid have gotten shitloads of focus in the past. We've got Rossi and Prentiss left. I feel that if they leave her in full-time there will be stories about her.
I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong to feel however they do or argue, but there's my opinion from the other side.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 02:19 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 02:30 am (UTC)I don't really have much to say, actually. I'll keep watching, because my favorites are still there, but I'm going to miss JJ dearly. I felt like she was a really crucial part of the character balance.
More than anything, I think I'm just mad at the way CBS handled this. Someone else has already said it better than me, but the way they blindsighted the entire cast, and especially AJ and Paget, was just rude and unnecessary. For me, this is less about the show and more about the actual living people involved. It's obvious how close the cast is, and I think this is probably going to be at least a little hard for all of them, even if it is just business.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 02:33 am (UTC)Anyway, I signed the petition and I've been tweeting in the vain hope that our voices will be heard, but knowing that whether it is 40,000 signatures or 140,000 signatures, the PTB had made up their mind before any of us got involved. I don't want to see AJ leave, or Paget's role reduced. I'd have rather seen them leave because they wanted to. I do realize that its a corporate decision.
I'm not going to stop watching the show, because, mainly, my favourite character is Morgan. However, even if it was Morgan that was gone with the show, I'd do what I did with AJ - Tweeted her back and told her to keep us in the loop when she gets another job and I'd check it out.
I'll keep watching the show until it no longer becomes interesting to me. I stopped watching CSI:LV because Grissom and Sara left and I couldn't warm up to Lawrence Fishbourne, and they killed off Warrick. The show changed to much characterwise. There's always going to be episodes of CM that I don't like (like No Way Out), and episodes I'll watch over and over again. If the characters continue to interest me, and the episodes continue to interest me, I'll keep watching.
And, like the majority of fans, I believe, I don't like the way CBS went about doing this ..... as others have said, blindsiding the cast.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 02:40 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 03:05 am (UTC)What irked me the most was HOW they decided to deal with the whole cut thing. Even now we still haven't heard a thing from CBS themselves. All the news were brought in by insider rumours. And yes, I'm still bitter from the fact that the cast themselves learned about it from Twitter, for god's sake.
Even with deals closed I still see the outcome as kind of a win for fans. Because AJ got 2 episodes instead of 1, and Paget got more episodes than what was initially said as "major cut". Whatever sad win it is.
As for flaming - people tend to be carried off easily in public actions. And I'm glad that most of the people kept fighting for the cause in style. Without blaming other characters (ie I'm still appalled by some of the fans posting about firing Joe) or using profanities at CBS.
I'd hate it to see the JJ storyline going in "I want to spend more time as Mom" direction though.. no offense to moms who choose their family over career.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 03:42 am (UTC)I'll certainly miss Emily, and don't love her reduced screen time, but I'd rather get another season of what I DO like than a mass slaughter due to budget cuts that would gut the heart/meaning of the series.
I feel bad for JJ's actress, losing a job is never easy, but I think from the main cast, she was the most logical to cut. To me it was financial and business decision -- and it sucks, but I will hope for the best for next year.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 03:49 am (UTC)That said, I have issues reading CBS's actions as anything but sexist. It is suspect that the targets of their budget cuts just happen to be female characters. I'm sure online fandom has little if any impact on TV execs' decisions; the bottom line is profit. And profit is directly related to ratings, most of which come from casual fans with Nielson boxes. The departure of any character--male or female--likely will not affect casual fans very much. So if it had been say, Morgan or Rossi (the least explored male characters) let go instead of JJ or Em, I doubt that would've made a huge difference to casual fans. So why zero in on the female characters?
My decision not to watch isn't about me being butthurt over Em and JJ. It's because without strong female characters, I simply am no longer interested in CM anymore. Even if JJ amd Em weren't my favorites--Hotch is--having them there is important. They balance out the team dynamic and in many incidences (sadly, mostly in the earlier seasons), have played crucial roles in solving the cases--roles that are unique to a female character. Losing that dynamic would be a huge detriment to the show. I am uncertain if JJ's replacement will be a series regular or just a recurring guest star (like Kirsten was on S1), but assuming the latter plus the reduction of Paget's role, that means less presence of female characters, meaning less presence of me as a viewer (this doesn't even mention the precedent being set here that female characters are interchangeable). I may be weak and try giving the new season a trial run, but my hopes aren't high, and I'm certainly not excited.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 04:44 am (UTC)This.
I was upset at the cuts, but the thing I am most upset by is the lack of strong female characters. There was an article circulating around that said (please forgive the paraphrasing) that the author didn't want his kids growing up in a world where the strongest female character on network TV is Meredith Grey.
I know that AJ and possibly even Paget will go on and get other jobs and be successful, because they're phenomenal actresses. But I am saddened by the message it sends to viewers that female characters are at best interchangeable and at worst, disposable.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 04:37 am (UTC)But.
CBS still sucks. It was a sexist move, and I don't know how anyone could see it otherwise. The show is already mildly sexist in that there are only three female regulars. While CM is much better at dealing with the female victims than other shows, it is still a little offputting that so many women get attacked and so few men do. Cutting the female cast is terrible. Especially since this show is one of few that shows women in real positions of power. JJ and Emily are important to the team. You would never hear any of the team members saying that JJ or Emily were replaceable. And yet, that's exactly what this jerk move from CBS says. The show treats women one way while the studio treats them another. Again, if CBS was having budget issues, there were plenty of other places to trim fat- the spinoff, Charlie Sheen's (Or really any other major actor's) salary, taking on less new shows.
I also see Doctor Who being brought up as an example of a show where the cast has changed and people still watched. I feel like this is a terrible example, as the entire point of DW is change. Change is so built into the show that to not change would be stupid. You can't have an alien that doesn't physically age be played by one person. Part of the reason old villians come back is to give the show a sense of rhythm that the leads cannot provide. The Daleks will always have some crazy scheme to rule the universe. The Cybermen will always be ready to assimilate. And even thought the companion changes, there will always be one to ask The Doctor questions.
These elements steady Doctor Who, but the elements that steady Criminal Minds are the cast. Morgan will always kick down a door. Reid will always have a statistic. Emily will always have a snarky comeback. JJ will always give a press conference, and will always feel for the victim. With cases changing every week, it is the team that steadies the show, so to take away any member of the team shakes the rhythm of the show. This may not be a terrible thing, but it is upsetting enough to get strong reactions from fans. And until the new rhythm of the show is found, there will be a lot of bitching and moaning. This happens even with Doctor Who.
And as to the arrangement that this is Hollywood, and it's ruthless and whatnot, I counter with the Friends example. They stuck together as a cast and refused to be bullied by their studio. And the studio listened. There are other examples of fans and cast members alike standing up to the studio and demanding what is right. So no, Hollywood does not have to be dog-eat-dog.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 04:51 am (UTC)So how would you like your internetz today?
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 04:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 05:26 am (UTC)However, I do think this was incredibly sexist and I'm really revolted by the way CBS handled it. They just up and handed AJ the pink slip and cut Paget without any warning, and then they made up some bullshit to make it sound okay. I am absolutely -not- okay with that. I also think they're making a mistake, dropping two well-loved characters to bring in an unknown, and I have a feeling that they might lose more money than they save with this move. I'm really wary of new characters. I started watching CM this past season but went back and watched all the old episodes first, so I wasn't around when Gideon and Elle left the show originally - I just saw the episodes they were in after the fact. So I'm sure tensions were high then as well. But if they bring on a flat female character with no personality, like that girl who replaced JJ, I will not be a happy camper. Nor if they pull the "stay at home mom" character with JJ - I really hope they do something worthwhile with her leaving, something that contributes to the show's storyline. I'm also hoping for more eps centered around characters -other- than Rossi and Hotch - I love both Rossi and Hotch, but we've had one Garcia-centered ep and one Morgan-centered ep and so many Rossi, Hotch, and Reid-centered eps. We've also had very few Prentiss and JJ-centered eps. I would really, really, really like to see that change.
I'm not sure if I'll be watching the spinoff. I love Forest Whitaker but I wasn't impressed by the rest of the spinoff cast and I think the hype is mostly BS. But everyone was iffy about NCIS:LA at the beginning, too, and I love it almost as much as NCIS, so I might give the CM spinoff a chance.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 06:20 am (UTC)And if you don't get that, I honestly think you must have been reading all this kerfuffle with half an eye closed. And that, I think, is bad.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 08:58 am (UTC)I'm not happy about the changes bit CM is so well written that I presume her leaving will be done in a good way.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 09:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 10:43 am (UTC)I am sad that A.J. is leaving, just as I was sad when Gideon left and I thought that this is it, no more Criminal Minds. But then I started to like Rossi. And all is good. But for me, Criminal Minds is all about the plot, the criminals and getting into their heads. And as long there isn't any other show dealing with that I will continue watching the show. (and please, Season 6, be awesome, please)
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 12:32 pm (UTC)Yep, I'm not on the list of people who WILL keep watching the show, but I wanted to show that I, personally, will never bash on those who will do or see them as flamers.
You're right, it's Hollywood, and it's "just" a job they are doing, a job in a very unsteady film industry.
Everyone should be allowed to decide for themselves and to share their opinions without being attacked by either side.
I wish the show all the best and of course the beloved cast, I really hope the new dynamics (and the new character) will work for them and for all the fans who will stick with CM - but I can't: I lost my fav character and with that the show that I loved.
But even that wasn't the decisive factor in the end why I'll stop watching, it's the way CBS set this off. No respect for no one, not the actors, not the fans. I'll watch those 2 JJ epis and after those it's a farewell from my side.
I wish you all lots of fun with season 6, I really do, and I hope you don't mind me jumping in here :)
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 01:06 pm (UTC)CM is my show, and I am not giving up yet. I love JJ, but really, it's a fantastic show, and I will keep watching.
They are capable of amazing things.
Some people mentioned Season 5 being weak, and I just really don't think that it was. There were a couple eps that could have been better, but that's what Season 6 is for :)
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 02:51 pm (UTC)I don't work at a network so i can't profess to know whats involved in budgeting a show like CM, an hour long drama is expensive and TV does not make what it used to (I do work in advertising and i have seen how thin the numbers are spread out with so many network and cable offerings) so i do get needing to cut costs.
but i get not wanting to watch a show when your favorite character leaves, but wanting to sabotage a show that employs sooo many others just doesn't seem right,
As long as the show is well-written and serves the other characters well, i'll watch. Because there are 6 others i enjoy watching,
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 04:20 pm (UTC)As someone pointed out earlier in this post (I think it was here...), 18-49 year old males are the key demographic for just about anything. Advertisers look not just at the ratings, but how the ratings break down - "Hey, CBS," they say, "the economy sucks and we're cutting back on our advertising budget. It shows here that Charlie Sheen is huge with these guys we like, and CM is too - when you DON'T focus on these broads. Let's do something about that, cool?" And CBS says, "Yes, sir, advertiser man, sir. Whatever you say."
I don't think the actual act of firing A.J. and reducing Paget was a sexist decision; it was a business decision, pure and simple. It's the circumstances that allowed these events to occur that show the sexist cracks in our society. Watch the advertising: do you see ads for cleaning products, or do you see ads for Home Depot? If you answered the latter, then the ladies are expendable from a business point of view.
The sad part is how we allow the media to define gender roles for us. A lot of people have a hard time swallowing strong women playing strong roles. Look at women in films: they're either the lead in a romantic comedy, or they've shed their femininity to the point that they're a guy with boobs (Lara Croft, anyone?). In other words, they either appeal almost solely to women, or they're created so that a guy can lust after them without having to feel any icky emotions. Ew.
It's a chicken-or-egg scenario, really. Is sexism rabidly rampant in our society, or is it the popular culture portrayal of gender roles that keeps us all in our tidy little boxes? In Sweden there are far more commercials for cleaning products depicting men cleaning the house; men take an active roll in raising the kiddos by taking paternity leave; and as much as that sort of society might appeal to me on an intellectual level, there's a part of me that says, "but that's women's work!" And that makes me sick. And what makes me even sicker is the fact that I KNOW it's just cultural mores (as largely defined these days by the media) that make me think it.
Ok, sorry, this got WAY long. My main point still stands: the casting change decisions were business ones, not sexist ones, but it was the inherent sexism in the media that created the situation for the casting changes.
Also, CBS acted like shit heads.
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Date: Jun. 26th, 2010 04:02 pm (UTC)As far as I can see there are three different reactions to all this:
1. “SEXISM!! THEY SACKED THE WOMEN!! WE LOVE YOU AJ!!!! BASTARDS!!
I can understand this. If it was purely financial, why not consider 2 of the men? Why not give Charlie Sheen a paycut? There is inherent sexism in the industry, as there is in all walks of life. But at the end of the day, there were 3 women in a cast of 7 and now there will be 3 women in a cast of 7. Women will always be at the head of the line to be chopped - especially on a cop show. I’m not going to be burning my girlfriend’s bras over it. I honestly don’t think it was a conscious act of sexism. It was a business decision based on the fact that the biggest demographic is women. Have you seen the ads during a CM episode? They aren’t for Guns & Ammo. Networks get revenue from advertising, advertisers know that women make purchasing decisions in a household, networks keep these women happy based on stereotypes. It sucks, it is probably wildly out of touch with actual audiences, but it is business.
2. “I hate CBS. It was a crappy thing to do. I’m boycotting the whole network.”
I think this is where I fall. I’ve slowly been losing interest in network television for a while, this is my excuse to say goodbye for good. In my open letter to CBS, I mentioned brand loyalty. The loyalty is to the actors, not a network. I signed the petition and made artwork because it let me vent my frustration at the situation. If CBS had explained that it was financial and that someone was going to have to go, I think it would have been an easier transition. To say it was financial and then backtrack and say it was a creative decision makes CBS look like it thinks people are idiots. Also, saying that they will hire a new cast member is a slap in the face to AJ - they can find the money to pay this new actor but not her.
To drop the bomb during hiatus was a crappy move. It showed a lack of respect for the cast and show runners by not keeping them informed; it showed a lack of respect for long time fans by dropping a character with no explanation.
3. “I’ll keep watching the show. My favourite is still there, I didn’t like JJ that much anyway.”
Good for you. If you still enjoy the show and want to keep watching it, that is entirely your choice. I’ve watched TV shows that have changed cast members and found it to be much of a muchness. It didn’t bother me when Michael Shanks left Stargate, I liked the show with the changes. It’s a matter of personal taste.
I have written before about my admiration for the actresses involved. I will watch any of their projects because they are in them. If I end up not liking a show, I’ll stop watching. That’s the way I watch tv - either I like the actors in them or I have heard good things from friends. Personally, I think the show will change because the fundamental group will be different, but that is what happens: people leave a workplace, new people replace them. I don’t think I will enjoy it as much, I have noticed a difference since the writing staff changed and don’t believe they can carry this off.
I think these polarised positions are an artefact of the internet. There is far more information/speculation available that gets people worked up. There are more outlets for people to engage with like minded individuals, which serves to ramp people up.
Do I like the decision that has been made? No, not really.
Does it make me angry? Yes.
Is that why I won’t watch regularly? Not entirely.
There are rather dramatic people at both ends of this debate, but I think most people are in the middle with the view that they have a moral objection to the way CBS has behaved and no longer want to support the network. Their reasons for objecting are their own.
In the end, the entire cast are employable if the show has jumped the shark and goes to the wall. I won’t agonise over how my decision will affect the other cast members because in the grand scheme of things…I don’t really matter.