premiere hotch speculation

[ohshiznaps.livejournal.com]

This was discussed briefly on the episode discussion post, but i felt it needed it's own as it could be a HUGE added pain for our beloved leader.

The reaper, Hotch... was there a rape? it was most definitely insinuated, but i felt it was more of a "wait, WHAT?!" moment that passed to quickly to get  a full read on the situation.

im thinking no. if it had, i feel they would have put in more content to support it. all we really saw was a stab that looked below the belt. and the reaper was still fully in pants through the whole thing. 

unless it's something hotch blocked from his memory...

does anyone remember what the reaper said to him? about stabbing being a substitute for sex?

  if this has been discussed or anything already, feel free to mod it up.

Comments

[meg-tdj.livejournal.com]

I'm of the opinion that it happened after the scene cut away, that Hotch was remembering it but was distracted by Emily's phone ringing before he got to that point. It was definitely implied that Foyet was about to do that. I just don't think they could show it all that overtly on network TV, and Hotch is pretending not to remember the attack because he doesn't want to tell anyone about that part of it. :(

[blondychik1.livejournal.com]

ia :(

[oneflewtoofar.livejournal.com]

I don't think he could take the time to rape Hotch after stabbing him so much. His aim was to keep hotch alive long enough to get him to the hospital, the danger of him bleeding out while Foyet got his rocks off would be too high. I think Hotch's junk got sliced and diced :( which really sucks. Or maybe neither, maybe they had him stab his thigh....probably not though.

[annievh.livejournal.com]

its kinda wierd to think that mutilation... down there would be easier for a tv show to deal with than rape.

as for the time, how long does one need to rape someone? its unzip pants and you're good to go. lol

[blondychik1.livejournal.com]

I was thinking the same thing.

Clearly there was no obvious rape, but during that scene I kept thinking to myself "This is very very intimate, in a sexually murderous way."

And then as soon as Hotch told Emily that he couldn't remember anything after the first stabbing, I knew he had to be hiding something.

And with the Reaper undressing and taunting Hotch about how stabbing represents sexual penetration, it just made me believe even more that he ended it that way...

I just hope Hotch talks about it with someone soon. We know that he bottles everything up, but that isn't good for him. I just want to hug him :(

[pinkujisatsu.livejournal.com]

what he exactly says on the scene is

00:34:58,083 --> 00:35:01,284
Now, i understand
that profilers think

746
00:35:01,350 --> 00:35:04,417
That stabbing is a substitution
for the act of sex.

747
00:35:04,484 --> 00:35:06,417
That if somebody's impotent,

748
00:35:06,484 --> 00:35:10,717
They'll use a knife instead.

749
00:35:10,784 --> 00:35:13,083
Is that what you think,
agent hotchner?

750
00:35:13,150 --> 00:35:16,584
Maybe this will change
the way that you profile.

And then Emily phone rings and we are back to 'now'.

I ended with the impression that, yes, Hotch was raped :/ If that was so I don't know if we will get more info on that but I suppose we will get some more explanation

Plus he says he doesn't remember anything since the first stab, which made me more suspicious of it.

[blondychik1.livejournal.com]

the Reaper was so intimate with Hotch...it just made me think he was going to do more than just stab him...

that scene was so intimate...it felt like the killer version of a sex scene, ya know?

[runriggers.livejournal.com]

I don't think there was - I think Foyet was just making the point that with a profile, using a knife can be seen as a substitute to rape, not that he was interested in raping Hotch. He didn't rape any of his other victims did he? I think he was saying, sometimes a knife is just a knife.

[blondychik1.livejournal.com]

But then again, he wants to torture Hotch. And I think raping him would do that even more.

Plus, we all know that rape isn't about sex with these people. It's about power and control. And what more could the Reaper want?

[elventree.livejournal.com]

My poor bb Hotch. *hugs him*

(And yes, that is all I have to add. I definitely hope he wasn't, but I think he probably was. *cries*)

[a_blackpanther]

Your icon is amazing!

[boosh-slut.livejournal.com]

I got the impression that he stabbed him kinda up his ass...that sounds really bad but that's they way his arm/hand seems to go after he's said the last sentence. =(

I feel so sorry for Hotch though. But I'm *so* glad that Criminal Minds is back! I was watching it on streaming this morning and my internet failed halfway through, I didn't think I was going to get it back! I was almost crying...

Reid looks wonderful in a pink shirt <3

[unfamiluartheme.livejournal.com]

That is exactly what I thought, that he kind of...stabbed him there because of the way he did it...I don't know how to explain it ;_; The way he moves his hand is way different than when he was just stabbing him in the chest.

[ohshiznaps.livejournal.com]

wouldnt the doctors have noticed and reported in the file that there was evidence of rape?

[glitter-my-glam.livejournal.com]

I doubt they'd tell the team without provocation though. That seems like something they wouldn't just share with anybody.

[took-skye.livejournal.com]

blondychik1, I believe it's how it was supposed to feel...cause that's what it was. Serial killers get their real/best/genuine sexual-type release from killing. It's the most intimate interaction they have probably. And kudos to the show's creators (cast, crew, writers, etc) for giving that an accurate portrayal! (Even if the image of pale Foyet all hovering over Hotch whilst slowing sliding his knife in and out of the beloved agent will forever creep me out, lol!)

...As for what happened between Foyet and Hotch...hmm...I'm not completely sure. Either Foyet raping Hotch or stabbing him in the genitals works to make his point about "he stabs because he's impotent" being false really. If he stabs, thus (presumably) leaving Hotch impotent than it's a way of taunting..."Will you stab others as a substitute for sex now that you can't get it up? ...No? Well neither do I and so I've proved you wrong!" If it's a rape Foyet's sadistically proven Hotch wrong by completing a sex act. Either would qualify as a sexual assault and, if the show does what it should, we'll see whatever happened start to back-up on Hotch. (Much like the Henkel case did with Reid - flashbacks, etc.)

My guess is it was a stabbing in the genitals...after all Foyet slid the knife into Hotch right after the statement in an area that seems rather below the belt (though not inner thigh, the femoral artery's there and it'd be too risky a stab). If there were a rape you'd expect to hear an unbuckling of a belt or some slightly clearer indication that Foyet took that extra sexually sadistic step. Though, honestly, I rather hope the show goes all out, is really brave, and does go with Hotch having been raped. Not that I want that to happen - I love Hotch and the poor guy's been through more than enough - but I'd be really impressed with the creators' willingness to go there.

[rwhip923.livejournal.com]

This is pretty much how I've been thinking. He clearly did stab somewhere in the genital region. But the psychological fallout of rape would make for some very interesting television.

[jomk.livejournal.com]

I keep thinking that Foyet got off when he was stabbing Hotch. Not sure where that last stab went, but the way foyet was laying on him, I think maybe he was proving he wasn't impotent as he used the knife. The insertion of the knife, the conversation... it was incredibly sexual.

[gershwhen.livejournal.com]

I agree. I think Foyet at least climaxed during the assault, just to disprove the "impotent" theory. How much damage he did to Hotch is still to be seen, I guess.

[dannylover934.livejournal.com]

I was wondering the same thing. I don't know if he did though because there was a sound effect right after that statement that really sounded like the other stab wounds. I agree with jomk that maybe he got off after that last stab. Just that Hotch lying about it made me think that more was going on. I do hope that we get an answer to it eventually. Sometimes the show leaves things hanging and doesn't get to an answer right away if at all.

[cupcakery.livejournal.com]

I'm on the fence about there actually being full-on anal penetration rape, but I definitely think that Foyet got off on it, as in I was surprised there's no mention of semen on Hotch's clothes (but Foyet is a smart Evil Scrawny Bastard would have used a condom).

I was very much reminded of Elle's "I could feel his hand inside my wound," and there's a definite level of sexual assault going on, simply because of the whole Foyet is a sadist and would, inevitably, be getting off on the pain (see previous female victims, obvs. and well, any history of sadistic killers). There's also the possibility that (attempting to be delicate, here) Foyet made his own orifice, re: stabbing. Which is just, augh.

[took-skye.livejournal.com]

Oddly the thought that, to use your words, "Foyet made his own orifice" crossed my mind as well...and now I'm just really grateful I'm not the only one whose mind went there. (Whew, lol!)

[doesnotsway.livejournal.com]

I got the impression that he just ... stabbed him somewhere not fun. But him raping him could very well be true. That'd be so terrible =/ There was definitely something more going on in that scene, imo.

[autumnsfire.livejournal.com]

Again, I don't think he was in any way.

There's NO background of Foyet ever sexually assaulting their victims.

And I don't think he'd change his MO for Hotch. He gets off on fear, and with Hotch in and out of consciousness like he was, there wouldn't be a chance for fear. Very close? Yes, ...but I don't think he was.

He stabbed Hotch 9 times and scarred him for life that way. I think Foyet would get off more on controlling the break of Hotch - if you rape the victim, it would take away a lot of control that you can have over them in the future. They may be scared of you; but a lot of times, there's also a feeling of "what more can they do?"

Foyet wants Hotch to keep guessing. My theory is that once he realizes he can't get to Haley and Jack; he will start going after the rest of the team. To watch Hotchner slowly break apart - to him, it would be more fulfilling than rape. Why?

Hotch refused the deal. That was the ultimate fuck you to Foyet. He wants revenge and taking his sweet time would be more fun for the man.

[angstbunny.livejournal.com]

In a way, I almost feel like it doesn't matter? Like, in a sense, I like the fact that it's ambiguous and we're all talking about it. Hotch has been violated. From what I've seen, everybody's in agreement over that. Does there need to be, uh, genital contact for it to count as rape? The show reiterates over and over: rape is about power and control, not sex. Here we have Hotch repeatedly penetrated, his bodily integrity violated by Foyet. Foyet, who has rendered Hotch powerless to asserts his own dominance. It reads as rape. It IS rape. I almost feel like that's Foyet's point, the show's point. It's not a substitution, not a stand-in, not a metaphor.

That's one theory anyway.

[meg-tdj.livejournal.com]

Ohh, well said.

hotch!

[laceymcbain.livejournal.com]

Good discussion - I was riveted to that scene. It was creepy and intimate and very intense. I'm of two minds - on one hand, it does imply that there could have been a rape with the notion of impotency introduced and the guy saying basically that using a knife doesn't mean you're impotent, let me change the way you think about that.

We're getting things from Hotch's POV, so it's clear he doesn't really want to go there in his memories.

I got the impression, though, that he might have stabbed him in the groin area, either injuring him permanently (ie not being able to have children, not being able to be sexual) or penetrating him sexually with the knife. I think the show will make it more clear over time, but for right now, it's probably enough to give us room to speculate on the trauma Hotch is hiding.

[bbt-criminal.livejournal.com]

I think that conversation definitely lead in the direction of all of us supposing that it was a penetrative assault. The concept is supposed to be torturing Hotch, and I believe that trying to keep the fact of being raped from the team would qualify, more than the actual assault. Hotch is a very private person, and having his life turned upside down by his own team would tear him apart more than anything Foyet could do himself. What would make a control freak feel more powerful than taking Hotch's masculinity away from him? His whole persona is based on being the Alpha male- taking Hotch down in the most emotional way possible would be irresistable.

Then again, they haven't even had Reid assaulted that way yet, and he's one of the femmiest characters on the show!

[cpolk.livejournal.com]

I think that if there's any way to squeak an M/M rape on network tv by, that was it right there.

but I'm not sure.

an unconscious john doe needing surgery, once the life saving stuff is over, they're going to do another examination, yeah? they cut off his clothes, probably - I think foyet would take the time to dress him, afterward. There's still time to reveal this detail because Hotch is still in the hospital, and there hasn't been a chance to say anything yet.

I think he did. but i'm not sure.

[annievh.livejournal.com]

i gotta ask, what is it that makes male rape so hard for people to talk about? it happens. like woman rape happen, and they're both equally painful, so maybe it's time to bring it on this show. they already have morgan's issues.

[innerslytherin]

In my opinion definitely not. In fact I hadn't even considered that possibility until, to my astonishment, I saw it popping up in people's discussion.

Foyet DID talk about the way they profile that stabbing is a substitution for sex. But he is very much the clever and manipulative unsub, and he was using that discussion to make Hotch feel even more violated than breaking into his house and stabbing him already had. He knew that discussing the sexual element would make that aspect of Hotch's job more personal for him, so he'll never be able to talk about stabbing, or the supposed meaning of it being sexual, without thinking of Foyet.

It's just another way of getting under Hotch's skin.

[finchesenroute.livejournal.com]

I think the writers purposefully left it ambiguous, so they can either return to it later on or not mention it again if the whole male rape thing gets the thumbs down from the network. I definitely think it was perfect the way it was written, though. I was on the edge of my seat and squirming the whole time, and I think if it was any more explicit, it would venture just a little bit too far for me.

Of course, they're evil geniuses for doing this, because now I'm hooked in for the rest of the season to see how this plays out. Sorry, Glee. :[

[yamair.livejournal.com]

I don't think Hotch was physically raped. His attack is under investigation so the doctors would've had to report everything to Emily.

The sexual overtones in that scene were very strong and people's minds are racing imo. Which is a testament to the show.

The Reaper psychologically raped Hotch no doubt. His violent behaviour has now evolved into also stabbing male victims - his previous MO was to get the male victims out of the way by shooting them, and then take his time torturing the women by stabbing them.

So this is the first male victim he has stabbed. He also knows that Hotch will see the sexual component of the attack, so it's a total mindfuck. He was saying to Hotch, if your belief about stabbing being a substitution for the act of sex is true, then right now I'm raping you.

[tracker-lucifer.livejournal.com]

... I think he was.

I think Foyet knows exactly how much time he has since he practice (and did his own stabbing) so he's aware of time constraint... Also at the same time it may not be "rape" per se. No penetration or anything but a violation. He touched him inappropriately or something.

But yeah. My opinion may sway later on if I rewatch the episode (cuz being in the hype of the season premiere does distract me from being analytical) but yeah... That's my thought!

... *runs off*

[ogiraffe.livejournal.com]

It wouldn't surprise me if he was but I'm not sure if it was a full on genital/anal penetration. I get the impression that Hotch might have been penetrated by the knife or Foyet diddled around in his stab wounds in an invasive way. Like when Elle was shot and she said he reached inside her to write in her blood. That sort of invasive rape. In most a lot of states rape is defined as forced vaginal penetration only and anything else i "sexual assault"

Either way the scene was very...sexual. Between Foyet stripping down and his speech about stabbing being a rape substitute, there were define allusions to some sort of rape, either sexual or just invasion of orifices.

EITHER WAY not a good situation for Hotch. I'm surprised he appear to be back on the job so soon in next week's promo.

[ivy-b.livejournal.com]

The entire time the scene was happening, it just screamed "I'm about to rape you"- from him talking about relaxing, cause the blade goes in smoother, to undressing and straddling Hotch and the whole "impotent" monologue. Then, at the hospital when Hotch denied remembering anything, it just gave me a "rape victim" vibe of not dealing.

Do I actually think he was raped? I really don't have a clue, cause I read all 122 comments here and still haven't made up my mind. But it definitely gave me that feeling, so at the very least he was psychologically raped. I'm not sure if the writers will ever explain or go there, but it sure got us talking and speculating!

[britmandelo.livejournal.com]

I don't think it matters if there was penetration involved; the scene reads as a rape whether or not it fits the legal definition of rape. The implication is that at the very least, Foyet was aroused and pressing himself against Hotch. He may not have achieved orgasm or taken it any further than that, but even that is a sexual violation. It's an objectification, a taking of control from the victim.

The camera angles tell us a story beyond even the hair-raising dialogue. (I actually made myself rewatch the scene for this, by the way.) Foyet doesn't place himself roughly around Hotch's knees (which would keep him from struggling and provide a better angle for the stabbing). He straddles him in a pointedly sexual position, half nude, and eases the blade in when he's stabbing. It's not a quick thrust like the first two wounds--he goes slowly, and makes sure Hotch feels every moment of it.

That is pretty much as close to rape, psychologically, as you can get. The trauma is what matters here, and clearly, Hotch at least has internalized it as a sexual assault. If he was merely stabbed and taunted, he would have told Emily. He instead cuts his gaze down and denies anything happening. Foyet's intent--to sexually humiliate and degrade him--was achieved.

So, I repeat. Does it matter whether or not there was anal penetration? (Though I'm not convinced there wasn't.) He was assaulted, sexually and physically. That does enough damage.